Wisconsin

[dapoes]

Holey frijoles, talk about the unhinged union whackos....

 

[Kev3188]

Yeah, 'cause we all know that one or two people are indicative of the group as a whole.

You know what I find "unhinged?" A governor that gave serious consideration to planting agent provocateurs in the assembled crowds. How 'bout the deputy AG for IN suggesting that police use "live ammo" on demonstrators?

Get real, Dapoes. Despite your attempts to portray this uprising as some sort of riotous mayhem, the boring reality is that the protests in WI have been overwhelmingly peaceful on both sides.

 

[dapoes]

Yeah, 'cause we all know that one or two people are indicative of the group as a whole.

You know what I find "unhinged?" A governor that gave serious consideration to planting agent provocateurs in the assembled crowds. How 'bout the deputy AG for IN suggesting that police use "live ammo" on demonstrators?

Get real, Dapoes. Despite your attempts to portray this uprising as some sort of riotous mayhem, the boring reality is that the protests in WI have been overwhelmingly peaceful on both sides.

Ok Kev, anyway glad to see such "civility" in action.

Btw, I'm curious on your thoughts on the posting above #81.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Forgive me for jumping into the middle of this discussion again but things are slow on the aviation related matters of the board that interest me so I'll add a few thoughts here which I hope represent a more pragmatic and centrist approach:

1. TO paint the situation in WI or OH or other states as solely an anti-labor or gov't attempts to squash labor miss the realities of the economic situation facing many states. Of course there will be those that try to argue that the Republicans are using their current power in many statehouses to weaken labor and there probably is some validity to that - but they wouldn't be able to do it if there weren't some basis. As in the airline industry, mgmt took advantage of the BK process to make long-sought changes to the labor-mgmt relationship but was only able to make those changes when their situation deteriorated to the point that they were able to seek the legal relief necessary to implement those changes.... the same principle applies here.
2. There is little debate that public worker benefits esp. and in some cases pay as well are significantly out of line compared to private sector jobs. Given that benefits costs across the board are growing at high rates throughout the US due to medical costs and retirement systems that are projecting to have more drawing on benefits than those contributing, it cannot be argued that state gov'ts are no more out of line with asking for changes in benefits costs as private companies did several years ago.
3. In many cases, labor is at a cross roads in the public sector - its last stronghold in the US - precisely because there is still a mindset that government workers are accountable to the voters - the vast majority of which do not receive benefits or pay as good as many public sector employees do. If labor as a whole feels that state gov'ts are ganging up on them, they might ask why they were not more responsive to the changing tides that were taking place in compensation throughout America over the past 10 years esp. Very few if any private sector workers get completely company funded retirement andor healthcare; state gov'ts have generated a lot of support in the recent discussions by pointing out the relatively lavish benefits state workers enjoy - and which the average taxpaer doesn't have.
It is also invalid to argue that these cuts are an attack on the middle class because the US is by and large a nation of middle class workers, the vast majority of which do not have public sector jobs and do not want to support their neighbors in their much cushier jobs. Reducing the benefits for state employees reduces the tax burdens and helps more people through potentially reduced taxes or improved services than among people who stand to lose benefits or pay. Given that many Americans face reduced gov't services AND higher taxes, it seems inevitable that a shift in labor/mgmt power in the public sector will take place - to the benefit of more Americans than are being "harmed."
It is noteworthy that WI public service unions argued that they would accept the cuts in pay and benefits proposed by the governor as long as their collective bargaining rights were not stripped or altered. Once your hand has been caught in the cookie jar, it is hard to argue that you don't have a sweet tooth and that you won't return to that type of behavior again. Gov. Walker is simply trying to not have to deal w/ the issue of benefits again - and also clearly is laying the case for further adjustments to benefits in the future given that even w/ these changes, WI public employees will still have better than average benefits.
Unions in WI and other states that have yet to take such drastic measures should be taking a very cooperative approach to helping gov'ts deal with the realities of the economies today - which do affect gov'ts - and demonstrate that they can be responsible partners with the public as a whole and not merely look out for the interests of their members at the expense of the larger public who has the ability to make life for gov't unions even more difficult in the future if they don't see that they (the public) sees some movement towards "more average" benefits.

Finally, stating that WI residents and union members should not speak up is ridiculous. I will be scared to death when people don't speak up for the things they believe in. There are clear economic interests driving these discussions but there are also philosophical underpinnings. Americans by and large are not willing to support ideaologies at their own personal expense but not speaking out on issues that matter opens the country to non-democratic processes from BOTH extremes.

There is an inevitabilitiy about the process in WI no major how much more the Dems there want to fight. The state will move on, the Dems do not have the power to stop the gov't, and people's frustrations w/ the school strikes ran thin very quickly; the governor could easily pin just as much hostility on the lack of the gov't to move forward if the stalemate isn't broken - which only hurts labor more. How badly the situation goes in WI only sets a template for other states to ensure that they obtain what they want w/o the rancor.

There are some parallels w/ the airline industry... WN is a highly unionized airline but it has some of the most cooperative labor-mgmt relations. Employees and mgmt win - as does the labor movement. DL is largely non-union, has largely succeeded at keeping it that way, and also has been able to deliver good pay and benefits to its employees while also winning as a company. The two examples show that labor-mgmt cooperation can be far more valuable in setting the organizational success than whether there is organized labor involved. Perhaps the greatest lesson organized labor can learn through this whole experience is that the same standards that have existed in the private sector will be assessed in labor discussions in the public sector. If labor unions can partner with employers to ensure organizational success, they have a bright future. If they remain focused on their own success - or even worse in the public sector to be focused on the success of their members at the expense of the gov't and the taxpayer - their demise will be as certain in the public sector as it has been in the private sector.

I am confident that at least some public sector union leadership can understand the changing paradigm and help ensure the union movement's continued success.

I would also like to think that some of the labor supporters on this forum are capable of using the hard lessons that have been learned from the airline industry's confrontation with labor over the past decade and turn them into a source of WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN strength for public workers, the gov't, taxpayers, and the unions themselves.

 

[Kev3188]

1. TO paint the situation in WI or OH or other states as solely an anti-labor or gov't attempts to squash labor miss the realities of the economic situation facing many states.

Actually, it really is that simple in this case. Walker-and to a larger extent his corporate masters- see unions and their ability to organize democrats as a threat to their power. To decimate that voice is the overriding goal here. This long ago ceased being about "balancing a budget" or "shared sacrifice." I'll remind you that time and again WI workers have answered the call to do their part, and they have done so again this time; Walker isn't interested.

There is little debate that public worker benefits esp. and in some cases pay as well are significantly out of line compared to private sector jobs. Given that benefits costs across the board are growing at high rates throughout the US due to medical costs and retirement systems that are projecting to have more drawing on benefits than those contributing, it cannot be argued that state gov'ts are no more out of line with asking for changes in benefits costs as private companies did several years ago.

Those benefits are not out of line when you consider that they are funded as deferred compensation, a concept I surely do not need to explain to you. No, what is occurring is the right is using them as a convenient wedge to pit private and public sector workers against one another as a means to distract from the root agenda at work here.

It is also invalid to argue that these cuts are an attack on the middle class because the US is by and large a nation of middle class workers, the vast majority of which do not have public sector jobs and do not want to support their neighbors in their much cushier jobs. Reducing the benefits for state employees reduces the tax burdens

What tax burden? Public sector pensions are paid for 100% by the workers themselves in the form of deferred compensation, in much the same manner that an athlete's contract may involve compensation on the back end.

This is absolutely an attack on the middle class by powerful corporate interest, and to paint it as anything else merely carries the right's water for them.

It is noteworthy that WI public service unions argued that they would accept the cuts in pay and benefits proposed by the governor as long as their collective bargaining rights were not stripped or altered. Once your hand has been caught in the cookie jar

Wait, what? You are implying wrongdoing here, and that is not only patently false, but also insulting to WI workers.

Unions in WI and other states that have yet to take such drastic measures should be taking a very cooperative approach to helping gov'ts deal with the realities of the economies today - which do affect gov'ts - and demonstrate that they can be responsible partners with the public as a whole and not merely look out for the interests of their members at the expense of the larger public who has the ability to make life for gov't unions even more difficult in the future if they don't see that they (the public) sees some movement towards "more average" benefits.

Workers have agreed to the fiscal demands Walker has called for. How is that not "cooperative?"

Finally, stating that WI residents and union members should not speak up is ridiculous.

And yet, that is exactly what you've called for here.

There is an inevitabilitiy about the process in WI no major how much more the Dems there want to fight. The state will move on, the Dems do not have the power to stop the gov't, and people's frustrations w/ the school strikes ran thin very quickly

What school strikes? There haven't been any.

the governor could easily pin just as much hostility on the lack of the gov't to move forward if the stalemate isn't broken - which only hurts labor more. How badly the situation goes in WI only sets a template for other states to ensure that they obtain what they want w/o the rancor.

Walker wants to be the "first domino" in the assault on organized labor. Holding the line is the least WI workers can do for their fellow Americans.

There are some parallels w/ the airline industry... WN is a highly unionized airline but it has some of the most cooperative labor-mgmt relations. Employees and mgmt win - as does the labor movement. DL is largely non-union, has largely succeeded at keeping it that way, and also has been able to deliver good pay and benefits to its employees while also winning as a company. The two examples show that labor-mgmt cooperation can be far more valuable in setting the organizational success than whether there is organized labor involved. Perhaps the greatest lesson organized labor can learn through this whole experience is that the same standards that have existed in the private sector will be assessed in labor discussions in the public sector. If labor unions can partner with employers to ensure organizational success, they have a bright future. If they remain focused on their own success - or even worse in the public sector to be focused on the success of their members at the expense of the gov't and the taxpayer - their demise will be as certain in the public sector as it has been in the private sector.

Again, Walker through his actions has made clear he has no interest in cooperation. It's his way or no way.

 

[WorldTraveler]

thanks for the thoughtful responses, Kev, and for allowing me to chime in a discussion that is much more meaningful to you....

I don't doubt the political element of what is involved in weakening the voice of labor - but I also don't see that the WI gov't could have succeeded thus far if there weren't some opportunity to have reduce costs - which was the message that the voters support.
Walker has succeded because he was able to convince the majority of WI voters that the cost of those benefits was out of line with private enterprise and thus there was a basis for going after the wages... and it was only because there was a significant enough reason to cut salaries that Walker was able to go after the collective bargaining aspect of his proposal.

Whether the retirement is funded or not doesn't change the fact that it is above average in cost compared to American industry - which is the message that has resonated with WI voters who clearly have not become incensed to the point of Walker and his legislators backing off the plan. The state of WI and its counterparts elsewhere in the US have had to set aside larger and larger percentages of their budgets for salaries and benefits; the fact that WI has funded its future obligations is a tribute to the fact that WI has been a well-run state. But it doesn't change the fact that Walker and others can see that the trend in the growth of personnel costs is not sustainable.
As I have stated before, I don't think it was necessary to go after the collective bargaining rights - but Walker used the FINANCIAL opportunity to achieve what was perhaps POLITICAL goals.

I am not implying that WI workers of any kind - the governor or teachers or prison workers or anyone else - are doing anything wrong. I said that even if the unions agree to all of the economic demands - which they have said they will do - there is no assurance that the issue won't surface again - which is why the governor wants to take collective bargaining for benefits such as retirement and medical out of the realm of collective bargaining. Saying their hands were caught in the cookie jar means that they are now admitting they need to work w/ the government to save their collective bargaining rights knowing full well that in the absence of any controls, the issue will be raised again because that is what has happened in the past.

Yes, you are right. Strikes didn't occur. School closures because teachers didn't show up for work for whatever reason did occur.

We have seen strong opposition to the plan from the expected parties and those who would be harmed by the plan - but I'm not sure we really know how the majority of WI residents feel about the plan... perhaps you can quote some polls (i'm sure they have been taken).
Perhaps you can also share share stats on the percent of the WI total workforce AND total voters that are unionozed... I don't know the answers but I suspect it will show that union workers arei in the minority and that is why Walker and co. are not afraid of the political repercussions of these moves.

As for your idea that WI public service unions have given everything they have been asked, I cannot say with certainty because I haven't been a part of those discussions for years. But I also doubt that the collective bargaining process has never touched on increasing employee contributions to retirement and health care - and yet WI teachers and others still pay very very little of the costs that private sector employees pay. It is very hard to believe that the unions have given in the past and yet for the difference between them and the private sector to still be so wide.

And I believe that it was because of that large gap and the apparent inability of the state of WI to achieve some level of improvement that provided Walker w/ the political opportunity to start taking away collective bargaining rights.

If you can show me previous state of WI contracts where employees made significantly increased contributions to their retirement and medical benefits, I will gladly admit that I am wrong... but I don't think it has happened or Walker wouldn't be starting from single digit percentages of contribution by employees - and in some cases less than 5%.

I actually am not at all supporting silencing anybody's voice. I very much believe there is a place for unions in the US - and that they can be successful. But I do see public service unions making the same mistakes that unions made in the steel and airilne industries which saw significant erosion of trhe power of unions because of their unwillingness to work w/ management who had genuine concerns. The US steel industry is effectively dead - and so are the thousands of jobs that went with it. Airlines ran completely roughshod over airline unions - and largely achieved what they want.

I believe you can look at WN and DL as examples of good pilot labor relations. Look at the 738 introduction issue at WN and the 77LR issue at DL. In both cases, the unions cooperated, the companies bought aircraft, and there are now more union jobs than there were before. In contrast, look at AMR which can't start any new route over 12 hrs w/ asking the pilots union who turns each request into an opportunity to grieve everything that has gone wrong for the past 10 years.

Unions can work in America and I am more than happy when they achieve their purpose in harmony with all of the stakeholders.

But what I see happening is that public service unions are headed down the same path as what has happened in the private sector - and as you well know, a concerted effort to attack unions in the public sector will effectively mark the end of organized labor in the US. Given that the United States Postal Service is running deep and sustained deficits and is also one of the largest unionized employers remaining, I don't think it is a stretch to believe that state efforts against unions will spread to the federal government.

I hope you can believe that I AM pragmatic and I am more centrist in my thinking than alot of folks with whom you are discussing this issue.

I look forward to discussing this issue more with you such that if we have missed what each other is saying, that can be put on the table.

 

[Kev3188]

Walker has succeded because he was able to convince the majority of WI voters that the cost of those benefits was out of line with private enterprise and thus there was a basis for going after the wages... and it was only because there was a significant enough reason to cut salaries that Walker was able to go after the collective bargaining aspect of his proposal.

Succeeded in what? He hasn't done anything yet, except try and buffalo through legislation that no one asked for, and something that was *never* brought up during his campaign.

Oh wait; he "succeeded" in returning hundreds of millions of dollars in federal aid, and costing WI ~ 5000 well paying jobs in the process (this bill, should it pass, will cost WI even more federal aid dollars). He also "succeeded" in signing of on tax breaks for businesses and the wealthy. If that's your idea of an eclat, well...

 

[dapoes]

Succeeded in what? He hasn't done anything yet, except try and buffalo through legislation that no one asked for, and something that was *never* brought up during his campaign.

Oh wait; he "succeeded" in returning hundreds of millions of dollars in federal aid, and costing WI ~ 5000 well paying jobs in the process (this bill, should it pass, will cost WI even more federal aid dollars). He also "succeeded" in signing of on tax breaks for businesses and the wealthy. If that's your idea of an eclat, well...

Those business and wealthy are the ones that shoulder most of the tax bill to pay for public servants. What's your solution? Raise taxes?

Knowing how engrained you are into the union world of collectivism and entitlement, you are unable to see anything past the union label. WT made a lot of sense out of whats going on in WI. To somehow lay this at the feet of the "rich" and business is a tired meme that no one is buying anymore.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Succeeded in what? He hasn't done anything yet, except try and buffalo through legislation that no one asked for, and something that was *never* brought up during his campaign.

Oh wait; he "succeeded" in returning hundreds of millions of dollars in federal aid, and costing WI ~ 5000 well paying jobs in the process (this bill, should it pass, will cost WI even more federal aid dollars). He also "succeeded" in signing of on tax breaks for businesses and the wealthy. If that's your idea of an eclat, well...

Then if he is stepping onto thin ice, he will pay for it politically as well as those of the Republican party in WI....and I recall that WI like many states recently returned to Republican control. If the Republicans sabotage all of the gains they have made, then perhaps you are right. I still stand by that the majority of WI residents are not going to defend the high salaries paid to public workers and are not going to hold the governor or Republicans responsible... if they misstepped, then other states will see that AND the Republicans tenure in WI will be short-lived. We will only know in about 22 months.

I don't know the specifics of the federal aid that was lost (or might be) or the tax cuts that were passed... but I will say that I see many people who think that a tax cut for business is bad.... yet do you realize that even the high taxation countries of Europe and Japan are realizing that the only way to rejunevate their economies is to cut taxes on business so that they will grow. If you study the Reagan era economic recovery, tax rates were cut and yet proceeds to the federal treasury increased as more businesses paid more taxes - and that did create wealth for lots of everyday, middle class Americans.
Businesses create wealth by creating jobs and investing in plant and facilities. Government does not. Of course many don't want to believe that key plank that economists have been arguing for years and became a key plank in Reaganomics... but I also would like to point out that taxes under both Republicans and Democrats have continued to rise this decade while the US economy remains in the toilet. And countries around the world are besting the US at the game - free market enterprise - which the US mastered and spread to the rest of the world.
I'm sorry if that principle is offensive to you but it has been so well established in economic circles around the world that there can really be no arguing the validity of the principle. The fact that the US now has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the industralized world might have something to do with why the US economy has not recovered.

I am as interested in seeing WI or any of its citizens suffer... but the American people voted very clearly last November that they wanted the economy fixed. They asked that of Obama and the Democrats two years ago and Obama - in my opinion - wrongly interpreted his party's win as an opportunity to implement many new government programs and expand the reach of government. Because they failed at the single objective they were given by the American people two years before, there was a signfiicant shakeup in governments across the US - and it went so far as to include typically liberal leaning states like OR and others, showing that the message is to fix the economy - and nothing else.

We can weight whether the Republicans succeed in WI, OR, and in the US government as a result of their positions of control - but all of the indications are that they are not going to accept status quo and they are wiling to go far out on a limb to prove that they are willing to do what both parties have not been able to do in more than 10 years - fix the national and state economies.

And if the economy is fixed, then the benefits should translate throughout the economy. But you cannot argue that the broken economy and maintaining the status quo today will benefit the economy as a whole - where the vast majority of Americans say that they are no better off or worse off today than they were 10 years ago.

 

[delldude]

Succeeded in what? He hasn't done anything yet, except try and buffalo through legislation that no one asked for, and something that was *never* brought up during his campaign.

Oh wait; he "succeeded" in returning hundreds of millions of dollars in federal aid, and costing WI ~ 5000 well paying jobs in the process (this bill, should it pass, will cost WI even more federal aid dollars). He also "succeeded" in signing of on tax breaks for businesses and the wealthy. If that's your idea of an eclat, well...

What will be the job loss without what Walker wants?

And when the hell we going to wake up and see federal aid, too is part of the problem?

http://www.dailydemocrat.com/guestopinions/ci_17480794

 

[Kev3188]

Those business and wealthy are the ones that shoulder most of the tax bill to pay for public servants. What's your solution? Raise taxes?

Knowing how engrained you are into the union world of collectivism and entitlement, you are unable to see anything past the union label. WT made a lot of sense out of whats going on in WI. To somehow lay this at the feet of the "rich" and business is a tired meme that no one is buying anymore.

100k yesterday seemed to disagree.

Neo feudalism isn't going to work either, no matter how badly you want it to.

Aren't you allegedly an F/A? If so, like it or not, you're part of labor and to a larger extent the working class. Why do you constantly advocate against your own interests?

 

[delldude]

100k yesterday seemed to disagree.

Neo feudalism isn't going to work either, no matter how badly you want it to.

Aren't you allegedly an F/A? If so, like it or not, you're part of labor and to a larger extent the working class. Why do you constantly advocate against your own interests?

You miss the point that public sentiment and frustration with government spending, past and present fueled the ballot box retaliation this past election.I don't think GOP actions in Wi or any other state are going to flip it back to the DNC....This past election was the tip of the iceberg for America with more to come and some politicians are finally wakening up. The days of campaigning and getting in on lies and half truths and then doing what you want is coming to an end. Accountability is now something politicians will live with or be gone. With the Dem's running from states to make some lame illegal end run at stopping legislation in the end will have done more harm than good to an already dying party.
On top of all this, through the evil right wing media machine, America for the first time, sees in black and white the salaries, benefits and work rules those in the public sector enjoy compared to what private sector gets usually requiring more from their dwindling paycheck.
Truth is the best medicine.
Don't forget all the HC waivers given out to union cronies as favors......
All the demonstrations are well and fine, but unless the voting union members can convince the majority of conservative and independent voters the monetary cost is justified, they are toast.

 

[tech2101]

 

[southwind]

Succeeded in what? He hasn't done anything yet, except try and buffalo through legislation that no one asked for, and something that was *never* brought up during his campaign.

Oh wait; he "succeeded" in returning hundreds of millions of dollars in federal aid, and costing WI ~ 5000 well paying jobs in the process (this bill, should it pass, will cost WI even more federal aid dollars). He also "succeeded" in signing of on tax breaks for businesses and the wealthy. If that's your idea of an eclat, well...

Kinda sucks , when the shoe is on the other foot...............doesn't it !

Reminds you of when Nobama "Buffaloed Through Legislation" and crammed Nobama-Care down out throats !

 

[southwind]

To finish your little cartoon bubble.........................." at the tax payers expense" ! :unsure: