Wisconsin

[SparrowHawk]

Dapoes,

Did I not predict that things would turn ugly? I don't like what Walker did even a little, however we have to allow the process to work. Criminal activity on either side is in a word deplorable.

While I would caution jumping to any conclusions just yet, however some thoughts if I may

Speaking personally while I don't like any government interference with individuals joining an organization such as a Labor union, I abhor this type of conduct apparently from the Progressives.

Given the above statement, Labor has lost my support. Threats and intimidation of small business people have no place in the USA. Now we have this debacle and now you've succeeded in driving away a perfectly good supporter of unions.

I sincerely hope that somebody, somewhere counsels whomever took the petitions to return them just as mysteriously as they left and allow the political process to continue unencumbered by criminal activity.

 

[Kev3188]

Dapoes,

Did I not predict that things would turn ugly?

I don't think that these recall efforts are ugly at all. If nothing else, it's nice to finally see people taking an active interest in politics.

While I would caution jumping to any conclusions just yet, however some thoughts if I may

... And yet, in the next paragraph, you do just that....

Speaking personally while I don't like any government interference with individuals joining an organization such as a Labor union, I abhor this type of conduct apparently from the Progressives.

Apparently? That's awful assumptive of you. How do you know it's not a set up? Hell, Walker wanted to put agent provocateurs in the protest crowds... As crazy as things are in WI, anything is possible.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I don't think that these recall efforts are ugly at all. If nothing else, it's nice to finally see people taking an active interest in politics.

No! But criminal activity is ugly. I have a real problem when groups behave like those in WI

... And yet, in the next paragraph, you do just that....

Well I'm maintaining an open mind. However if I was a betting man I'd bet the Progressives are up to their eyeballs in regard to the break in. That said the Republicans aren't above the agent provocateur or two either. The real point is whomever is at fault it needs to stop and recall petitions need to reappear as if my magic and the political process needs to continue WITHOUT this horse manure no matter who is shoveling it.

Apparently? That's awful assumptive of you. How do you know it's not a set up? Hell, Walker wanted to put agent provocateurs in the protest crowds... As crazy as things are in WI, anything is possible.

I won't apologize Kev because to me, neither party is worth the powder it would take to blow them to hell. Here's the bottom line, We're going broke, our kids are illiterate, or Military interventionism costs to much, we're overtaxed and under represented. Now then ask yourself if it was 100 years of Libertarian leadership that brought us to this point OR was it the current one party Republicrats who have brought us to the brink?

Vote Libertarian! Could it be worse?

 

[xUT]

Vote Libertarian! Could it be worse?

Now that's a snappy slogan...

 

[SparrowHawk]

Now that's a snappy slogan...

Well thanks!

Seriously though, take a look at the last not quite hundred years. Look at the Federal Debt to GDP figures starting the year the Federal Reserve was created (1913) and you'll notice a few things.

1. The debt bomb fuse was lit by the combination of creating the Fed and the Debt incurred by entering WWI. So the real blame of many of our ills lay at the feet of then President Woodrow Wilson.

2. Even at the height of FDR's New Deal, implemented in the face of a severe Depression was still below 50& Debt to GDP.

3. FDR created the single biggest threat to out finances as a society and even to our national security when Social Security was enacted and implemented.

4. The ONLY time prior in US history that Debt exceeded GDP was during the three years post WWII

5. Post war Debt to GDP remained in the mid 30 to 50 percent range up until 1990 when it spiked to 60%. Since then it's headed up in rather dramatic fashion.

6. Since 1990 we've had a nearly equal number of years under the leadership of bother parties. So blaming one over the other is a fruitless endeavor when clearly there is sufficient blame to go around.

So it is against this backdrop we head into an election with a polarized society. Why? Good question and for me the answer is
Because the Republicans and Democrats want it that way. What no one counted on was the Tea Party rising up. If you look throughout American History very little if anything was ever accomplished until a percentage of the citizens rose up in righteous indignation. Civil Rights Movement being one very good example.

Truth is neither party has the testosterone to tackle the tax code and the crushing debt as which ever party gets serious is going to be out of power in short order and likely for a long time.

The next piece of the puzzle is no one but no one has the time or energy to tackle the structural issues that cause the Federal Government to end up as a black hole of expense. "But we've always done it this way" is alive and well in the halls of the Federal Government and no one has the clout, political or economically to move the ball forward and address the way the Government does business. We waste BILLIONS each day with bad business process in every agency. No one thinks "Geez, if we streamline the business process we might be able to deliver more services for less money".

The reason Little Billy can't read is because of a non business like approach. In Education the "Product" is kids who are literate and can go on to higher education. Well folks the Product we deliver is a Yugo for the cost of a BMW. This has to stop. Don't believe me? Ask GM how delivering an inferior product at premium prices worked out for them. This is why Christie and Walker are doing what they're doing with the Teachers Union. If you want to stay in business you have to deliver a product that people want to buy and Big Labor in the form of WI teachers haven't gotten the memo that the public isn't willing to pay for a BMW and take delivery on a Yugo.

 

[SparrowHawk]

The problem in Wisconsin is not unions but government
from www.lp.org

"Libertarians are neither pro-union nor anti-union. We believe that the right of association and freedom of contract allows any group of people to choose to bargain collectively rather than individually. Naturally, we oppose violence and threats of such, but unions per se can play a major role in a free society. The problem is that the battle between the Wisconsin state government and state employees isn't even remotely a free market.

"Government monopolizes many services that could and should be provided in the voluntary sector by profit-making and/or non-profit organizations. This also gives them a 'monopsony' as virtually the only potential employer for workers in these fields. Once someone has trained to be a teacher or prison guard, they are essentially at the mercy of government for their employment in that field. Blaming them for wanting collective bargaining representation would be comparable to siding with the Polish government against the union Solidarity headed by Lech Walesa that freed Poland in 1989 from Soviet rule. The problem is with the employer: the government."


"Far and away the largest part of the budget of the State of Wisconsin, once aid to local governments is allocated to underlying expenditures, is in the category of education. This is true of virtually all state and local governments, so it is the best example of how freedom can provide a solution. Unfortunately, government expenditures for education are driven by political considerations rather than the needs of the students. The result is outrageous costs that are not primarily for the most important ingredient in education: the teacher.

"The U.S. Department of Education calculates that the per pupil cost of K-12 education is nearly $11,000 in the 2010-2011 fiscal year. The Cato Institute, however, in a paper entitled, 'They Spend WHAT? The Real Cost of Public Schools,' discovered that actual spending in the districts they examined was 44 percent higher than official reports due to the failure to include various categories (such as spending financed by bond issuances). We can reasonably estimate that true spending is more than $15,000 per pupil. With class sizes, on average, exceeding 20, the total spending per classroom is probably well in excess of $300,000. Obviously, most of that money isn't going to the teacher in the classroom. In private schools that don't depend on taxpayers, it does: teacher pay and benefits averages nearly 80% of the total budget of the average private school. Not surprisingly, while private schools are often described as havens for the rich, public school spending per pupil is nearly DOUBLE the average private school tuition, mainly because it is a haven for administrators and other recipients of `education' money who never step foot into a classroom.

"The answer to Wisconsin's budget crisis, and that of governments throughout the country, is to return education to the voluntary sector. Compulsory education dominated by tax-supported schools was not established until the mid-1850s, yet literacy rates prior to that time were higher than they are today. Parents have ALWAYS valued the education of their children, and the religious and secular private schools of that time knew they'd only be paid by parents if they taught their children. Free or reduced costs for poor parents was always part of the tradition, and would be again in a country freed of massive taxation and spending.

"Returning education to the voluntary sector and eliminating compulsory funding and attendance laws, not to mention centralized bureaucratic nightmares such as the bi-partisan No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 championed by Republican President George W. Bush and the late Democratic Senator Edward Kennedy, will free teachers to be responsive to the needs of their students instead of the desires of politicians. As for how to do it quickly, a case can be made for selling all the local schools and putting the proceeds into the underfunded pension and benefits funds, then leaving the reorganization of education in the hands of the buyers. But, the workers at these schools are the ones with the strongest interest in ownership. We could just give each school to its local employees and let them decide whether to run it or sell it. Either way, the teachers, the students, the parents, and the taxpayers are all big winners.

"Education is the largest item in the Wisconsin budget, but the same principle applies to other expenditures. The legitimate debate in Wisconsin and elsewhere is not about whether the politicians or the government employee unions should win. It is why we should be stuck with only one employer sucking the money from taxpayers and then complaining when their power to decide how it is spent is not unlimited."

 

[xUT]

This is what fascism looks like.

Vandals Break In WI Office – Steal Fleebagger Recall Petitions Hours After It Was Announced Enough Signatures Were Collected

On Thursday Wisconsin conservatives announced that they had collected enough signatures 15,000 to recall fleebagger Senator Dave Hansen of Green Bay.


How convenient.

Vandals broke in and stole computers and recall petitions from a Wisconsin political office late last week.

Of course, lets deny due process and hang em...
Let GOD sort it out...

 

[xUT]

I don't think that these recall efforts are ugly at all. If nothing else, it's nice to finally see people taking an active interest in politics.



... And yet, in the next paragraph, you do just that....



Apparently? That's awful assumptive of you. How do you know it's not a set up? Hell, Walker wanted to put agent provocateurs in the protest crowds... As crazy as things are in WI, anything is possible.

Since this is all a conspiracy 'theory', could be Nixion sent his team in from the grave because they knew the didn't have enough signatures...
BTW, anyone hear of scanners? USB sticks, network backups...
Man this just gets funnier and funnier...

 

[SparrowHawk]

Fasten your seat belts folks we're going to have some pretty heavy turbulence! Looks like the WI "Supremes" will be taking a hard look at the law. The current law was overturned on what some would call a "technicality". However for those of us who believe in transparency in government it is so far at least a check box in the win column.

Judge Voids Wisconsin Collective-Bargaining Law

MADISON, Wis. — A Wisconsin judge has struck down a law taking away nearly all collective-bargaining rights from most state workers.

Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi ruled Thursday that Republican legislators violated Wisconsin's open meetings law during the run up to passage. That renders the law void, she said.

The law pushed by Gov. Scott Walker takes away all bargaining rights except over base salary for teachers and other public workers.
In a 33-page decision issued Thursday, Sumi said she would freeze the legislation because GOP lawmakers on a committee broke the state's open meetings law in passing it March 9, The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports.

"It's what we were looking for," said Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne, a Democrat.

Ozanne sued to block the law after Assembly Minority Leader Peter Barca (D-Kenosha) filed a complaint saying that GOP legislative leaders had not given proper notice in convening a conference committee of lawmakers from both houses to approve Walker's budget-repair bill, the Journal Sentinel said.

Sumi wrote that judges are supposed to apply the law even if their decisions will be "controversial or unpopular," apparently in an effort to stave off what will likely be a GOP outcry. She said Ozanne showed "clear and convincing evidence" that the open meetings law had been violated.
The decision is not the end of the legal fight. The state Supreme Court has scheduled arguments for June 6 to determine whether it will take the same case.
Lawmakers also could pass the law again in order to nullify open meeting concerns that led to the judge's ruling Thursday.

 

[Kev3188]

A good start

 

[SparrowHawk]

A good start

We shall see. If the WI supremes take the case and uphold the law then things will get very very dicey

 

[dapoes]

We shall see. If the WI supremes take the case and uphold the law then things will get very very dicey

Or they can just repass the law as is. Problem solved!
Err...things are already dicey in WI. If the supremes reverse it then let WI go straight down the toilet like the other liberal progressive utopia.....Detroit!

 

[SparrowHawk]

Or they can just repass the law as is. Problem solved!

Problem just begins again. This is the beginning of the battle between the Progressives and those who stand for the rights of the individual

 

[delldude]

Will be interesting to see if the dems run and hide again and the other clowns looking for national exposure will take time off and show up in droves again.

 

[dapoes]

Problem just begins again. This is the beginning of the battle between the Progressives and those who stand for the rights of the individual

Well we all know what they would do. Raise taxes. Blame the rich etc.