Will Nw Pilots Honor Picket Lines, Or Cross?

[Hackman]

Huuummm? Eastern or American? Huuummm? What model should I follow? Do I wish to be in the unemployment line or working for less money? I spoke to an AA MD-80 crew not long ago and asked them a question. Would you do it all over again if you were in the same situation? They both said, "Duh? Look where we are and look where the rest of the industry is right now! Many will be without jobs and we will pick up their routes and grow and become profitable (which they already have) and retire while some work at Home Depot." I hear talk of Pilots only thinking of themselves and Full Pay To The Last Day, well what about the other employees and their families and the retired mechanics and your children? This industry is harsh but it is much more harsh on the street eating beans and hoping to pay for your kids school supplies. I have lived it and know that we may think we can make 50k a year on the outside but how long has it been since most of you looked for a job? Talking about thinking of others............Look long term and look at the lives that will be torn apart when an airline goes under that employees 60k people and all thier families. Good luck to everyone......I continue to HOPE! P.S. IT is easy to say "go ahead and strike, we are with you here at AA or AWA or any other airline." NWA people, does it profit an employee from another airline to say, "go ahead and stike, we are with you?" Some are like vultures standing by rooting on the lion waiting to feed their families on the remains of your airplanes and routes. Be careful be very very careful what we wish for.

[post="284074"][/post]​

I've read your hope, hope, hope posts NWA400. As a pilot, you hope you get to keep your big pension when you retire, don't want AMFA messing that up, right? You hope you don't have to go through what the NWA mechanics went through. You hope the man doesn't come after you again, because you already gave in without a fight. Your weakness is duly noted. You sound just like some of my spineless twu union leaders when the man comes knocking. "Come on guys, you have to take this or we're going into Chapter 7 liquidation". "Its the best we could do, your just lucky to have a job".

The mechanics know that pilots could give a damn as long as they get cheese cake with the correct topping in their crew meals, and their airplane flying along at 33,000 feet doesn't come apart.

I HOPE that cheap 3rd party maintenance you pilots so willingly accept keeps you safe.

 

[Hackman]

I pretty much agree but I think the flight attendants may honor the AMFA picket line (if their contract allows it) because the PFAA, like AMFA, has/had it's "roots" in Laconia.

I don't think the NW pilots will honor an AMFA picket line simply because they have too much to lose. They saw what the UA and US pilots lost in bankruptcy; especially the pensions. They will do everything they can to prevent them from being terminated and turned over to the PBGC. And the pilots honoring an AMFA picket line would devistate NW.

As for the IAM and ramp service, I don't think that they will honor an AMFA picket line. Why? Because the IAM is still angry about losing the AMT's union dues to AMFA. They hate AMFA. As far as the NW ramp service people, I would not try to speak for them but I am pretty sure they remember the NW AMTs comments about ramp being grossly overpaid because they ride the AMT's coattails. Although the NW ramp people may support the NW AMTs goals, I doubt they would be willing to make monetary (and possible job) sacrafices for another group that has historically thought very little of them. AMFA has always rebuked the concept of industrial unionism and has said that because of their skills they can go it alone. We shall soon see in about 20 something days whether this is true or not.

From my experience at EAL, I think NW CAN fly through an AMFA strike. Why? Because at EAL they did not farm out heavy maintanence and had to hire scabs to work in heavy overhaul in addition to the line, as to where NW has already farmed out a good chunk of its heavy overhaul, thus it is already staffed. Once the EAL-ALPA president got nervous and made a statement about how the EAL pilots should return to work, many pilots went back in and this is when EAL was able to get MANY more planes in the air. EAL's maintanence wasn't pretty during the strike, but it was good enough to let the airline fly for about 2 years after the IAM and others walked out.

[post="284112"][/post]​

I don't really put much credence into what a ramper with an "advanced degree" predicts will happen. Were you one of the Eastern employees that scabbed during the 2 year slow death of Eastern? Seems to me you are extremely excited to see the possibility of NWA breaking AMFA at all costs.

Seeing as you are a twu ramper, I expect this type of stupidity.

This is no time for labor unions to harbor ill will, you saw what happened with the afl-cio yesterday. The industrial unions refuse to change, its the same old (Sweeney, Kirkland, Meaney) failed story.

Your turn in the pickle barrel may be next.... :huh:

 

[NWA/AMT]

Huuummm?  Eastern or American?  Huuummm?  What model should I follow?  Do I wish to be in the unemployment line or working for less money?...

[post="284074"][/post]​

As I have pointed out for you previously, those are not the choices NWA has presented to it's mechanics. If the choice is the unemployment line or the unemployment line, it becomes much easier to choose. Once the promise of continued job erosion removes the hope of recall, the choice becomes one of meek submission or defiance.

Your posts consistently address the NWA mechanics, but you have yet to make a posting addressing NWA's management in the same fashion. Do you seriously believe that things would be at this point if NWA management did not want them there?

NWA management are the ones who have failed to negotiate in good faith. They have maintained the same position at the negotiating table that they had when they came to it almost nine months ago. They have maintained, and even increased, their economic demands even though the financial information they provided AMFA clearly did not support cuts as deep as they are demanding. They have also maintained the position that the draconian cuts they are demanding are the only way to achieve the cost savings and refused to even consider other methods of achieving the same savings. They are quite aware that even if AMFA were to accept their proposal completely as written, the elimination of more than half of the members jobs guarantees rejection.

So save your posts about "hope", NWA took that off the table long ago.

We'll survive unemployment and be away from a company that treats employees like scum at the best of times, you'll still have your seat in the front and the pay that goes with it and NWA will have the cost cuts they are demanding; everybody will be happy. At least until the next economic downturn when they don't have us to demand cuts from any more and will dig that much deeper into your pockets. Eventually, three or four economic cycles later when NWA has outsourced everyone but you, it will all have to come from your group, I suppose. Save your lectures about hope and how things are at AA until then, because they don't apply to the NWA mechanics.

 

[magsau]

NWA./AMT,

In my opinion you are only one that truly understands the big picture of the events that are occuring. Your post are spot on and I wish you the best of luck in what ever the outcome is.

Cheers

 

[mwa]

MWA,

How would staying with afl-cio, have changed the fact that the Pilots can not honor the picket line ?
BTW, Have you heard ? SEIU & Teamsters dumped the AFL-CIO too........ It was in USA Today ( yesterday)
SN

[post="284094"][/post]​

it would be my understanding that a common affiliation would permit a sympathy strike or at least the right to respect the picket line. and yes, i realize that organized labor is in crisis - individualism rules.

 

[NWA/AMT]

NWA./AMT,

In my opinion you are only one that truly understands the big picture of the events that are occuring. Your post are spot on and I wish you the best of luck in what ever the outcome is.

Cheers

[post="284194"][/post]​

Thank you.

 

[High Iron]

I sincerely with you the best of luck NWA/AMT, as well as the rest of your AMT's.

At the risk of sounding corny or trite, you all really are fighting the "good fight" despite how some will rationalize NWA's bad-faith actions as "just business".

Right is right, and it's OK to take a stand. Remember, a postion isn't more correct just because it seems to appeal to moderation.

I might also add that despite the stated intentions to the contrary, those who urge you to capitulate "for the good of the airline" ( "hope"? ) are really asking you to throw in the towel in a self-sacrificing act of magnamity.

BTW, didn't a NWA labor relations man ( apparrently, that's what he was ) admonish you guys that "You need to know your place in society" back when AMFA had their cvontract negotiations back in '01?

All the best.

 

[NWA/AMT]

it would be my understanding that a common affiliation would permit a sympathy strike or at least the right to respect the picket line.

[post="284210"][/post]​

While that may or may not be legal under the National Labor Relations Act which governs most industries, it is not the case under the Railway Labor Act. Most airline union contracts contain a "No Strike" clause that prevents sympathy strikes or refusal to cross a picket line.

and yes, i realize that organized labor is in crisis - individualism rules.

Indeed, most employees are simply relieved when management is messing with someone other than them, not caring that the overall effect is to diminish all. "Hooray for me and #@&% you" appears to be the order of the day.

 

[NWA/AMT]

I sincerely with you the best of luck NWA/AMT, as well as the rest of your AMT's.

[post="284225"][/post]​

Thank you.

At the risk of sounding corny or trite, you all really are fighting the "good fight" despite how some will rationalize NWA's bad-faith actions as "just business".

It's interesting that a company's desire to reduce their employees campensation is seen as "just business", yet the employees desire to not see their compensation reduced is not. Is work not a business?

Right is right, and it's OK to take a stand. Remember, a postion isn't more correct just because it seems to appeal to moderation.

It would appear that moderation is not what NWA seeks, based on their actions to date, but capitulation. AMFA's negotiators have tried taking a moderate position but declined to take a prostrate one.

I might also add that despite the stated intentions to the contrary, those who urge you to capitulate "for the good of the airline" ( "hope"? ) are really asking you to throw in the towel in a self-sacrificing act of magnamity.

It is normal for someone to be concerned when the actions of others will affect them.

BTW, didn't a NWA labor relations man ( apparrently, that's what he was ) admonish you guys that "You need to know your place in society" back when AMFA had their cvontract negotiations back in '01?

Indeed. The quote was: "There comes a time when you (the NWA mechanics) need to know your place". I believe that the person who made that comment is a very senior member of the current NWA management team. It certainly typifies NWA's labor relations history.

 

[Kev3188]

Indeed. The quote was: "There comes a time when you (the NWA mechanics) need to know your place". I believe that the person who made that comment is a very senior member of the current NWA management team. It certainly typifies NWA's labor relations history.

[post="284235"][/post]​

I thought that fell out of John "Astar" Dasburg's mouth?

 

[aafsc]

I don't really put much credence into what a ramper with an "advanced degree" predicts will happen. Were you one of the Eastern employees that scabbed during the 2 year slow death of Eastern? Seems to me you are extremely excited to see the possibility of NWA breaking AMFA at all costs.

Seeing as you are a twu ramper, I expect this type of stupidity.

This is no time for labor unions to harbor ill will, you saw what happened with the afl-cio yesterday. The industrial unions refuse to change, its the same old (Sweeney, Kirkland, Meaney) failed story.

Your turn in the pickle barrel may be next.... :huh:

[post="284128"][/post]​

If you don't really care about what a ramper with an advanced degree predicts what will happen, then why do you respond to my posts? I am speculating on what might happen at NW just like many others on this board. Are you afraid that the "coattail" theory will be proven wrong once and for all at NW when/if AMFA strikes and NW continues to fly while the ramp service people still collect their $20+/hr? Do you really believe that the IAM will support AMFA after AMFA took dues from their coffers? Do you really expect the ramp service people at NW to sacrafice their pay and possibly their jobs for the AMTs when the majority thinks like you? (I use your post towards me as evidence). You can call me stupid, but so far what I have predicted at NW has come true. Can a deal be reached between the two? Sure. But how will AMFA explain a huge concessionary T/A to it's membership when NW is not even in Bankruptcy?

To answer your question, no, I was not an EAL scab. I walked the line. Someone posted earlier that NW management learned from the EAL situation and I pointed out some of the major differences between the two situations with regards to the pilots and heavy overhaul.

To last part of your post, I actually totally agree with you. The AFL-CIO has done nothing for as long I can remember. What did they do at CO in the early 1980s after their first bankruptcy? What did they do during the EAL situation? They receive a portion of our dues and we receive next to nothing in return. Unions leaving the AFL-CIO has long been in the making because they have not stopped the downward slide.

And yes, AA could try to farm out ramp like NW has done/is doing to it's AMTs but it would cost them dearly. If there was a strike at AA it would be VERY difficult to staff the tarmac at DFW, ORD, STL, MIA, JFK, SJU, LAX, BOS, etc. And if they were successful, I wouldn't really care.

 

[Beer Guzzler]

The Pilots will cross the picket lines..

The pilots have nothing to loose, they have already taken concessions.. NW Mtc is taking a stand and a "possible" strike looms, they too have nothing to loose.

Morale is bad, people are hurting in the wallet, job stability is gone.. Bottom Line.. People are struggling to make ends meet & they can not afford ($$$) to go on strike.

It is a tough place to be in. With a family to feed, mortgage and all the other bills that assault us every month.. I'd be inclinded to say that NW Mtc will not get the support from other unions they need to drive their point home.

I wish the BEST to all Northwest Employees.. I work in Mtc Control w/DL and it won't be long before we are in the very same boat. (ie.. $388 Million Loss last Qrtr).

 

[jimntx]

While that may or may not be legal under the National Labor Relations Act which governs most industries, it is not the case under the Railway Labor Act. Most airline union contracts contain a "No Strike" clause that prevents sympathy strikes or refusal to cross a picket line.

True, but if there were true union solidarity, "Flu" season might come early this year. It would only take 2 or 3 days of sudden illness on the part of a lot of pilots/flight attendants/gate agents/whoever, to get the company's attention.

Indeed, most employees are simply relieved when management is messing with someone other than them, not caring that the overall effect is to diminish all. "Hooray for me and #@&% you" appears to be the order of the day.

And, this is why there will be no early occurrence of flu season. And, unfortunately, it's not just in union vs. union issues. I see this attitude in U.S. society in general. As long as something does not restrict my ability to do/say whatever I want to do/say, or does not affect my paycheck or my children, why should I care?

 

[NWA/AMT]

I thought that fell out of John "Astar" Dasburg's mouth?

[post="284267"][/post]​

Dasburg was gone by that point - replaced by Richard Anderson. No, NWA's advocate for a return to feudalism was none other than Doug Steenland.

 

[NWA/AMT]

True, but if there were true union solidarity, "Flu" season might come early this year. It would only take 2 or 3 days of sudden illness on the part of a lot of pilots/flight attendants/gate agents/whoever, to get the company's attention.

[post="284338"][/post]​

Considering NWA's history, I would expect they would immediately have the unions involved in court seeking damages in the tens of millions. To my knowledge, AMFA is the only union on the property that has provisions in their contract that allow them to refuse to cross a picket line, so I don't believe than anyone expects direct support from the other groups on the property.

And, this is why there will be no early occurrence of flu season. And, unfortunately, it's not just in union vs. union issues. I see this attitude in U.S. society in general. As long as something does not restrict my ability to do/say whatever I want to do/say, or does not affect my paycheck or my children, why should I care?

Indeed. The irony is that if our forefathers had that attitude we would still be a part of the British Empire.