"...avoid Bankruptcy At All Costs"

[luv2fly]

I can't think of an RJ pilot who says that he doesn't need to get his machine and its passengers safely and economically to the destination his company told him, follow all the rules and laws governing his flight, and treat well the passengers who pay his salary. I can't see a difference in the mission of a pilot between any two airlines. If there is, how can one union represent pilots who fly multiple airplane types?

Well,

Lets go back to the Ceo analogy. The Ceo yields greater power because of his/her control over the direction of the company. Why does the Ceo of a large corporation command a higher salary than a Ceo of a small independantly owned business?

 

[emily]

I, too, am having trouble understanding why the sense of responsbility is higher on a 777 than an RJ. I can't think of an RJ pilot who says that he doesn't need to get his machine and its passengers safely and economically to the destination his company told him, follow all the rules and laws governing his flight, and treat well the passengers who pay his salary. I can't see a difference in the mission of a pilot between any two airlines. If there is, how can one union represent pilots who fly multiple airplane types?

This is very simple. If a pilot drives an airplane into the ground and kills everybody on board, how many lawsuits will cost the airline more: 50 or 300?

 

[mweiss]

Why does the Ceo of a large corporation command a higher salary than a Ceo of a small independantly owned business?

The honest answers are three.

1) Because he can.
2) The reason he can is that he has worked his way up to it from smaller jobs, which often includes being the CEO of smaller businesses.

This is the equivalent to seniority-based increases.

3) The crony system.

Unfortunately, this is the primary reason.

But, when push comes to shove, there is no significant difference between the CEO of a large corporation and the CEO of a small, independently-owned business.

 

[Segue]

I, too, am having trouble understanding why the sense of responsbility is higher on a 777 than an RJ. I can't think of an RJ pilot who says that he doesn't need to get his machine and its passengers safely and economically to the destination his company told him, follow all the rules and laws governing his flight, and treat well the passengers who pay his salary. I can't see a difference in the mission of a pilot between any two airlines. If there is, how can one union represent pilots who fly multiple airplane types?

I guess all those low paid pilots on the LCCs will be flying recklessly without regard for safety!!!

 

[luv2fly]

I guess all those low paid pilots on the LCCs will be flying recklessly without regard for safety!!!

Are you referring to the LCC carriers like WN, that are now going to have some of the highest paid 737 captains in the industry?

 

[WorldTraveler]

The higher pay scales are even harder to justify when one talks about Airbus aircraft since the pilot of the smallest Airbus is capable with little additional training of flying the biggest Airbus. Seems to me its the computers that know the difference between the size of the aircraft and make the appropriate adjustments, not the pilots. Since other manufacturers are moving in the same direction, a larger airplane will be harder to use as the reason for increases in pilot salaries.

I can buy seniority as a reason for an increase in salaries since that is more consistent both within and outside of the airline industry.

The reality is that airlines will save millions in training costs if they can get pilots past the idea that flying a big plane is SO much more prestigious and instead let pilots fly where they want to fly on what they want to fly and be paid based on their contribution to the company - which is largely unrelated to the size of the machine they operate.

 

[mweiss]

And, let's face it, the captain of an airplane is no more likely to be careless if the airplane is empty than carrying 500 passengers and a billion dollars in diamonds in the belly. Either way, if the aircraft becomes a big ball of flame, the captain dies...and I suspect they really enjoy living.

 

[WorldTraveler]

This post seemed pretty relevant in light of DL's bankruptcy filing... and the subsequent conversation about responsibility vs size of aircraft.

JetBlue's emergency landing also showed that even low paid people can be trained to do some pretty amazing things. (of course it didn't hurt that the same type of thing had happened a half dozen times earlier on the A320).

 

[ualdriver]

This post seemed pretty relevant in light of DL's bankruptcy filing... and the subsequent conversation about responsibility vs size of aircraft. 

JetBlue's emergency landing also showed that even low paid people can be trained to do some pretty amazing things.  (of course it didn't hurt that the same type of thing had happened a half dozen times earlier on the A320).

[post="305792"][/post]​

And this post shows how you shouldn't be commenting on something you know nothing about, but I guess that really hasn't stopped you before. Especially since an investigation into this accident probably has barely even been started, never mind completed.

(This is conjecture to prove a point. I would never attempt to comment on an accident such as this until reading the final accident/incident report. And "low paid" is WT's words, not mine.) There were some reports that there was a write-up concerning the nose gear the previous day of the accident. Perhaps JetBlue's "low paid" mechanic screwed up in releasing the aircraft. Perhaps JetBlue's "low paid" mechanic overlooked something that a more skilled mechanic would have found had JetBlue wanted to pay a decent mechanic's wage? Maybe the previous write-up was constructed at an outstation where most airlines now don't have their own mechanics because it "costs too much." So they got Joe Blow mechanic from the local FBO to check it and sign it off, even though he's not personally familiar with the A320 series of aircraft? If the aircraft made a trip through El Salvador for some "discount maintenance" that we all are doing to sell cheap tickets (including UAL) perhaps a "low paid" pilot wouldn't have had to put to use his considerable skill and judgement in the first place? Why don't you wait until the accident investigation is over before making judgements about how pay factored into this near catastrophe?

For you aviation types out there, again, the above is just conjecture. I have no idea what the real circumstances were nor will I pretend to.

 

[luv2fly]

This post seemed pretty relevant in light of DL's bankruptcy filing... and the subsequent conversation about responsibility vs size of aircraft.

JetBlue's emergency landing also showed that even low paid people can be trained to do some pretty amazing things. (of course it didn't hurt that the same type of thing had happened a half dozen times earlier on the A320).

[post="305792"][/post]​

I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the JB media frenzy just yet WT. The crew did a fine job but there are still some questions to answer.
I would wait until the NTSB files its final report before coming to any conclusions.

 

[RDU Jetblast]

High pay doesn't always equal safety/competence. The right attitude, intelligence and lots of training usually does-but even then, not always. Stuff happens.

Delta has had its fair share of incidents/accidents despite the salaries earned.

Of course there should be increased in pay for an increase in jet size. This is comon sense. But you know what, mechanics, mechanics with avionics, and AFCS qualifications and experience should receive an increase in pay for each type of a/c too.

We all should be paid for what we bring to the table and do.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

I don't think that aircraft size and pilot pay are traditionally proportional to reflect the supposed higher value of a 'big airplane pilot' or the higher 'prestige,' I think it's an automatic way to link pilot pay with productivity, so that if the fleet size mix of an airline changes, pilot pay changes to reflect the new economics. Certainly, it's not perfect.

Perhaps, you could have some kind of mathmatic calculation based on fleet size mix or 'average seat capacity per plane' but then pilots would all share equally in the ups and downs of the seat capacity mix, instead of riding the seniority rollar coaster.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Well, we certainly hit a raw nerve didn't we, ualdriver? (cha-ching).

I'm not at all holding JetBlue or Airbus harmless for a potentially catastrophic incident that has now happened two times.

I am pointing out that there obviously isn't a direct correlation between pay and safety - you either have it or you don't. Would you like to argue that UA is a less safe airline today than it was 3 years ago before UA entered BK? The statistics sure seem to say that there are no safety issues because UA pilots make alot less money and have lost significant pension benefits.

Perhaps you missed this press release just today that shows that safety is a culture item that some airlines have and some don't. Apparently, Delta has it far more than other airlines.

Press Release Source: Delta Air Lines, Inc.

Delta Air Lines Named One of the Safest Companies in America
Tuesday September 27, 11:41 am ET
Delta is first airline named to annual safety 'who's who'


ATLANTA, Sept. 27, 2005 (PRIMEZONE) -- Thanks to the safety focus of Delta Air Lines' (NYSEAL - News) employees worldwide, the airline has been named one of America's safest companies for 2005 by Occupational Hazards magazine. The publications annual list of ``who's who in safety'' recognizes a handful of U.S.-based companies that set their own standards for safety by exceeding federal regulations and industry averages for workplace health and safety standards. Delta is the first airline to be named to the list and joins 61 leaders from other industry sectors that have received the award since 2002.
``At Delta, maintaining a safe work environment for our employees and a safe operation for our customers has always been our most important core value,'' said Joe Kolshak, executive vice president and chief of operations.

``Over the years, Delta leaders and front-line employees have remained dedicated to building a culture of safety that has provided numerous successes, including the lowest workplace injury rates among U.S. airlines,'' Kolshak said. ``Being recognized as one of America's safest companies is a testament to the commitment of Delta people at all levels who provide a safe, reliable operation for our customers and employees every day.''

Said Occupational Hazards Managing Editor Sandy Smith, ``At Delta Air Lines, it is apparent that safety is an integral part of doing business. Our judges were particularly impressed with the fact that safety is included at the start of an employee's career -- from listing safety as a responsibility in job descriptions to Delta's open door policy for expressing safety concerns.''

Delta is a recognized leader in safety. Delta has the lowest OSHA recordable injury and illness rates of any Air Transport Association member.

Additionally, Delta was the first commercial airline to be accepted into the Occupational Safety and Health Administration's (OSHA) Voluntary Protection Program (VPP) and has four VPP Star sites -- the highest level of recognition. Acceptance into the VPP program signifies OSHA's official recognition of Delta's efforts to promote exemplary workplace health and safety programs that go beyond regulatory requirements. Delta and its regional airline affiliate Atlantic Southeast Airlines remain the only airlines to hold Star status in the VPP program.

``We also were impressed with Delta's commitment to OSHA's Voluntary Protection Program, indicating management support for safety and employee participation in safety, and the various ways the company offers for reporting safety issues to local and senior management,'' Smith said.

Delta's other safety awards include:


-- The 2005 National Safety Council Green Cross for Excellence
award -- given to National Safety Council members with lost work
day rates below the Bureau of Labor Statistics national average.
-- The 2005 Self Help for Hard of Hearing People National Access
award -- given to companies that improve access for people with
hearing loss. Delta is being recognized specifically for its Gate
Information Display System in 20 airports that provide visual
information to customers in real time.
-- The 2004 Georgia Department of Labor's Safety Excellence
award -- presented to Georgia locations that have operated
250 days in the previous calendar year without a lost work day
due to occupational injury or illness.

Occupational Hazards, in its 67th year of publication, is the leading magazine of safety, health and loss prevention. The companies selected to the publication's 2005 list of safest companies in America share common safety values, including lost-time injury rates below industry standard, environmental health and safety programs that have earned recognition from state and federal safety associations, and safety programs built on core safety values that include safety committees, training, continuous improvement, risk assessment and accident prevention.

Delta Air Lines is the world's second-largest airline in terms of passengers carried and the leading U.S. carrier across the Atlantic, offering daily flights to 484 destinations in 87 countries on Delta, Song, Delta Shuttle, the Delta Connection carriers and its worldwide partners. Delta's marketing alliances allow customers to earn and redeem frequent flier miles on more than 14,000 flights offered by SkyTeam and other partners. Delta is a founding member of SkyTeam, a global airline alliance that provides customers with extensive worldwide destinations, flights and services. Customers can check in for flights, print boarding passes and check flight status at delta.com.

 

[ualdriver]

Well, we certainly hit a raw nerve didn't we, ualdriver?

Actually, not a raw nerve. I just think it's pretty stupid when people who know little or nothing about actually flying an airplane make comments about aircraft accident/incidents when an investigation isn't even completed, never mind commenting on compensation and how that correlates with a specific, complex chain of events leading to an aircraft accident/incident.

I am pointing out that there obviously isn't a direct correlation between pay and safety - you either have it or you don't.

You either have safety or you don't? 150 people die on the nation's highways everyday. Do we have safety? I guess it depends if you're one of the 150 or not. It's in the eye of the beholder. Unfortunately it's not that cut and dry.


Would you like to argue that UA is a less safe airline today than it was 3 years ago before UA entered BK? The statistics sure seem to say that there are no safety issues because UA pilots make alot less money and have lost significant pension benefits.

There may not be a short term direct correlation between pay and safety as there are currently a glut of aviation professionals on the market right now. Long term? There absolutely will be in my opinion. Smart people are not going to enter the aerospace industry in the future as pilots and mechanics, just as aerospace engineers aren't now. It costs way too much money to learn to fly, get a 4 year degree, work for $15,000/yr as a flight instructor (if you're lucky) and then $19,000/yr as a regional F/O, etc., etc., year after year, in the hopes of attaining that $80,000/yr. JetBlue 190 Captain slot after 15+ years of financial struggle. Hopefully the military will keep cranking out pilots. God knows what we'll do for quality mechanics. But hey! The tickets will be cheap!

Yes, I would argue the MARGINS OF SAFETY are decreasing at UAL and at all airlines who are outsourcing maintenance to the lowest "FAA Approveed" bidder. UAL paid great mechanics salaries and was able to attract quality people to repair and overhaul our aircraft. I used to get real UAL mechanics to come out to my airplane when I had a gripe who actually were familiar with my aircraft. Now, I get Joe Blow at Smith's Flying Service to come out and look at the big jet with his mouth agape, in awe at how shiny the aluminum is. This crap is going on at almost every airline, it's legal and "FAA approved," and it won't stop unfortunately until something bad happens. There's a reason why the FAA is called a tombstone agency.


Perhaps you missed this press release just today that shows that safety is a culture item that some airlines have and some don't. Apparently, Delta has it far more than other airlines.

Wow! OSHA and Occupational Hazards magazine think DAL is a safe airline. What an honor! Here I was trying to interpret complex safety statistics at the FAA and NTSB sites but all I had to do was crack open Occupational Hazards Magazine. UFB. Do you have any idea how utterly ridiculous it is to quote Occupational Hazards Magazine and claim that DAL is a safe airline to fly? The next time I get on a Delta aircraft, I'll take comfort in knowing that their corporate office space has the appropriate amount of halon fire extinguishers and eye wash stations.

I don't doubt that DAL is a safe airline to fly, either.

 

[WorldTraveler]

So why didn't UA get the safety honors that DL did? After all, DL is bankrupt so they certainly couldn't have paid off all those people - esp. since they've been "quasi-bankrupt" for a year.

I, too, am concerned that there will be longer term impacts on safety in the industry. However, there is an aweful lot of information available that wasn't available just a couple years ago. Even if the government doesn't step in, I am comfortable that enough information is available so that I can make an informed choice. I personally do not hesitate to fly UA or any other other big six except for NW right now; there has been too many close calls for me to believe everything is fine there now.
And I don't think we have anywhere close to a culture of safety on US roads. We built some of the best roads in the world and then allow people to do all kinds of diversionary activities while driving and then act surprised when something horrific happens. Thankfully, aviation rules and pilot common sense is at a much higher level than what exists on US roads. And for that reason I feel much safer in an airplane than on my daily commute.