Will Continuous Improvement Work At Tul?

[Jim Anderson]

Continious Improvement?! What are you possibly thinking?!!! Cutting heads and eliminating overtime forever. This is the worst program the TWU has bought into. How come the TEAM TWU isn't screaming about this one? It won't work in our shop because we went to the school on it and came back and told everyone it was a layoff plan. They then read the material on the shop internet and saw that my conclusion was right. Don't buy into anything that cuts your own nose to spite your face.

This is a perfect example of ignorance,please note I did not say stupidity because ignorance is simply the result of being uninformed and thats about to change soon..

My initial response was skeptisim and curiosity.. The curiosity enabled me to investigate the history of C.I. and who has used it and more importantly what were the results..
Edwards Demming an American came up with this idea as a way to streamline processes in manufacturing.. Oddly enough when he tried to sell these ideas to management they told him to get lost, they really didn't want the hired help telling the boss how to run his business.. Demming gained no following until post WW2 Japan with its manufacturing base in ruins bought into his '' idea'' A good example of this is Toyota, they have used the idea for well over 40 years now and rather than shrink and lay off people they continue to expand and make quality products that some of you good union men buy ( personally I drive a FORD) ..

Before you pass judgement on something make damn sure you do some homework, check with the other companies especially Pratt-Whitney who have used this to an advantage actually growing their business and adding employment, talk to those employees..

Your choice to continue with ignorance and fear or grab this and make it work to your advantage.. What have you got to lose??

Jim 4-D

 

[Rusty]

hey hey SCABS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
y'all talk about union bustin but .........................................

WHAT PART OF UNION DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?...................dAAve?
& the rest of you amfa (puke)scabs WHAT PART OF UNION DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
dAAve is that why you left the shop you were in? too many TWU tee shirts
too much pressure from WHAT PART OF UNION DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
great slogan huh? too MUCH truth for YOU???
you talk like you don't like the "world" you should they back you SCABS all the time must be your brother in UNION BUSTIN',HE'S AS BIG AS JERK AS YOU ARE
how did you like the pix i sent you?
give it up it's over get this dAAve ......hot off the wire...NO VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
get it? NO VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the rest of you amfa (puke) SCABS get it ? NO VOTE!!!
how much $$$ you amfa (puke) jerks pay the world???? where does that $$$$ come from?? same place when the big SCABS come to town & y'all whine/dine 'em????? do the rest of the SCABS know about it???? y'all keep books to show the scabship @ the scabship meetings?
is that why buck took a c/c job so he'd have more $$$ to dump into the scab fund?
dAAve that shop you are in now was a temp cc job. why did you take it???
they (AA) knew it wasn't going to work there but, THEY had to hurry up & put it somewhere.........look for a move sooooooon & what you gonna do then?
it isn't CI that is cutting heads out there any how. it is the 4/10's that is the problem. more/more shops are finding out that isn't the answer either
like cio said the RO team is working & BRINGING the work back but, you say no
so there goes another arugement look around amfa(puke) SCABS the work is coming back in house & that is what really upsets y'all + NO VOTE 🙂 O sorry,
i seem to repeating my self 🙂 NO VOTE!!!!!!
O yeah i know what REALLY got ya dAAve...........the pix in the world the guy in the pix..........man o man did ya see it????? did ya huh? did ya see it???????
he was wearing a NO amfa(puke) button LOLROTFLOL!!!!!1HA HA HA HA HA
O YEAH BABY HE WAS WEARING A NO amfa(puke) BUTTON!!!!! O MY,O MY
don't ya just LOVE it?????
WHAT PART OF UNION DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???.........SCABS
TWU/AFL-CIO/ATD =SCABFREE
i won't comment on the stupid stuff you SCABS wrote over the weekend
nightwatch/cio/hss/strake/twuer/ etc. cover you up pretty good huh? 🙂

This could qualify for the most intelligent post on the net!!! ROTFLMAO :jerry:

 

[Mark Inman]

Mr. Anderson: How long did you live in JAPAN studying the benefits of this plan for the working people of the country. I lived in Japan from 1986-1989. The working people of Japan did not have to worry about showing up for work one day and the doors being locked and finding out the boss took all the money from the company and built a mansion in Florida He did not find out after 20-30- years of service with a company he got 25 cents on the dollar for his pension. The Japanese business man had more honor than that. If he ran a company into the ground it was a disgrace to him. He would fall on his own sword. But the extremely productive people of Japan during the 80's had the highest rate of alcohol abuse, domestic violence, and suicide in the world. There was no middle class just upper and lower. Which do you think American business men and women will want to eliminate the middle class or the upper class? Maybe you should find out what you’re talking about before you come on this sight and criticize people for their opinion. By the way Mr. Anderson the Japanese people did get to enjoy very long 12 Hr work days so they could afford to live in a house the size of your garage with there family hopefully close to a bus stop. NO VOTE :angry: NO PEACE!!!!

 

[Decision 2004]

This is a perfect example of ignorance,please note I did not say stupidity because ignorance is simply the result of being uninformed and thats about to change soon..

My initial response was skeptisim and curiosity.. The curiosity enabled me to investigate the history of C.I. and who has used it and more importantly what were the results..
Edwards Demming an American came up with this idea as a way to streamline processes in manufacturing.. Oddly enough when he tried to sell these ideas to management they told him to get lost, they really didn't want the hired help telling the boss how to run his business.. Demming gained no following until post WW2 Japan with its manufacturing base in ruins bought into his '' idea'' A good example of this is Toyota, they have used the idea for well over 40 years now and rather than shrink and lay off people they continue to expand and make quality products that some of you good union men buy ( personally I drive a FORD) ..

Before you pass judgement on something make damn sure you do some homework, check with the other companies especially Pratt-Whitney who have used this to an advantage actually growing their business and adding employment, talk to those employees..

Your choice to continue with ignorance and fear or grab this and make it work to your advantage.. What have you got to lose??

Jim 4-D

And I thought you read the book "Confessions of a Union Buster".

Jim, how many unions were in Japan where Demmings applied these philosophies?

 

[Buck]

is that why buck took a c/c job so he'd have more $$$ to dump into the scab fund?

Actually I took the C/C job because I needed to recover some of the concessions provided by the TWU.

 

[fix_airplanes]

When you read the CI article you will notice a 3 year time frame. And that is what we had better be concerned about.

When you read the CI article you will notice MRO mentioned. And that is what we also had better be concerned about.

If Tulsa doe's not turn into an efficient aircraft overhaul base, you can bet the next contract negotiations will revolve around large amounts of MRO sytyle outsoursing (as in bye-bye "C" checks) just like so many other airlines are now doing.

I think a time line has been drawn in the sand.

:unsure:

 

[Birdman]

If Tulsa doe's not turn into an efficient aircraft overhaul base, you can bet the next contract negotiations will revolve around large amounts of MRO sytyle outsoursing (as in bye-bye "C" checks) just like so many other airlines are now doing.

Tulsa WAS an efficient O/H base untill TEAM AA/TWU started screwing with it. In the 90's 100% dock performance was the norm. If one dock dropped an airplane the whole base was buzzing. Now if your outbound makes it your hero's. The 95' contract began the downward spiral of efficiency and morale. Did anyone see any difference in productivity post 9/11 even after the NWA matching raise? All I saw was dock headcount 40% above necessity.
As for the MRO threat, there's not one shread of evidence to convince me it's cheaper to outsource maintenance. All you hear are ambiguous hourly rates. Show me the bill from AAR on the TWA lease returns they did for us with manhours, bill of work, extra charges for parts, and the TOTAL COST. Put up or shut up!

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I have always taken the stance, That it is quicker to get several items at once than to get one item at a time. I also like to get the job done in a reasonable amount of time in a professional manor and have the down time afterwords.

I use to agree wit that logic. But at the current ecomomic conditions I know many line mechanics who really dont care about "down time" we now do the job by the book and what used to take 4 hours 2 years ago now takes 8 hours. When you do it the right way no more down time and less less gets done. But you get paid to do a job so do it right. No more deals no more D&Gs 8 hours of work for 8 hours pay. So in the big picture who really looses, not me

 

[fix_airplanes]

Regarding MRO's current popularity with the bean counters.

I ran into a fellow mechanic at Lowe's last month. Laid off from AA Tulsa.

He is working at AAR in OKC----commuting.

Pay is $17.00 w/A&P.

Working on Alaskan Airlines 737-900 aircraft. 🙁

 

[local 12 proud]

"just be glad you have a job BROTHERRRRRRRRR"

 

[Jim Anderson]

Maybe you should find out what you’re talking about before you come on this sight and criticize people for their opinion.

At first I thought about trying to reason or give examples and suggested reading to possibly educate the misinformed but its no use.. Sweet sounding memories of a drunken serviceman or contract worker trying to compare two different cultures and work ethics says it all friend.

Keep the tough guy routine it wins alot of hearts and minds

Jim 4D

 

[Decision 2004]

At first I thought about trying to reason or give examples and suggested reading to possibly educate the misinformed but its no use.. Sweet sounding memories of a drunken serviceman or contract worker trying to compare two different cultures and work ethics says it all friend.

Keep the tough guy routine it wins alot of hearts and minds

Jim 4D

Good point,

But I was still wondering if you knew how many Unionized companies, that Demmings philosophies have been implemented and the union remained an effective advocate for the worker after the fact?

My opinion is that there is not much historical data on Demmings and Unionization and therefore, none of us really have any factual data to take an educated position.

I agree that we must change the way we do business to compete, but I don't want a weak or ineffective union to go along with the required change.

If you have proof otherwise, please share, I am interested!

 

[Decision 2004]

Regarding MRO's current popularity with the bean counters.

I ran into a fellow mechanic at Lowe's last month. Laid off from AA Tulsa.

He is working at AAR in OKC----commuting.

Pay is $17.00 w/A&P.

Working on Alaskan Airlines 737-900 aircraft. 🙁

If he got laif-off from AA and is now making $17.00 plus per hour, then he is doing better than if he still worked for AA.

I know Mechanics still working for AA making less than $17.00 per hour even after 6 years of employment.

Good for him!

 

[Nightwatch]

Good point,

But I was still wondering if you knew how many Unionized companies, that Demmings philosophies have been implemented and the union remained an effective advocate for the worker after the fact?

My opinion is that there is not much historical data on Demmings and Unionization and therefore, none of us really have any factual data to take an educated position.

I agree that we must change the way we do business to compete, but I don't want a weak or ineffective union to go along with the required change.

If you have proof otherwise, please share, I am interested!

..........none of us really have any factual data to take an educated position.

Wasn't it you that stated "we are overmanned at TULE". How many heads would have to roll Dave to bring us inline with what you deem is necessary staffing?

 

[Birdman]

This is from the Deming.org site.

"After lunch, Deming conducted his famous Red Bead Experiment. During this exercise, Deming asks six “willing workersâ€￾ to scoop beads from a box using a special tool. The goal is to select only white beads. Unfortunately, 20 percent of the beads are red. This makes it nearly impossible select only white beads.

Deming tried his best to get his willing workers to produce defect-free work (no red beads). It’s obvious that the goals he set for the workers were impossible. No matter how hard the workers tried and no matter how much Deming threatened, praised and rewarded them, the system was at fault, not the willing workers. Deming demonstrated this by constructing a control chart which clearly showed that the workers produced within control limits.

I’ve seen the Red Bead Experiment done by other consultants, but none of them does it as masterfully as Deming himself. He shows how utterly futile it is to blame workers for system problems that are beyond their control."



This last statement hits the nail on the head. There we were, the worker bee's, doing what we're told to do by an inept management team. Suddenly, bankruptcy is threatening and the workforce is the problem, not the solution. Over a year later here we are, even after massive cuts in labor expense still the problem, and the solution this time. Retrain the workforce, not management. Go figure.

I don't know about this Deming guy, but the Red Bead Experiment makes sense.