TUL mechs

[Bob Owens]

Let me chime in here.
 
He is pretty much correct.
 
The work in PIT and CLT is protected until a JCBA is reached between our two groups.  Work in these two stations is classified as Overhaul.  PIT's Overhaul hanger has 3 tracks with one being recently closed with the RIF of about 50 Mechanics.  The company is using this time to modernize the closed track and basically update the hanger.  We also use the line hanger, which is from the 40’s or 50’s as I remember, to do drop in pre-ops mods on …OUR (US 321’s with AA paint jobs)…. new 321’s.  The PIT line hanger  kind of reminds me of the old AA hanger in BUF.
 
We have been doing base work here in PIT for more than 70 years, dating back to the All American Aviation, Mohawk, Lake Central era.  If the company wants it fixed right the first time, they send it here.
 
Try telling an old timer here in PIT the work is going away if you want a black eye.  I’m sure it’s the same in CLT.
 
Everything maintenance oriented for Allegheny and USAir has always been done here.  Until  2005, we had every shop imaginable, including a state of the art engine shop and test cell.  Until then, we were the Mecca for USAir.  That’s all gone now along with about 13,000 jobs.  I’ve lost many friends, and seen too many people lose their careers here in PIT.
 
The stores operation here is the second largest, if I got that fact correct.  CLT, PHL and PIT are all very large stores operations also.
 
I pretty much sure the CLT base has the same history for Piedmont.  And PHX base has the same history for America West.  Maybe someone from those stations could elaborate.  ( I didn’t mention PSA, because the company pretty much destroyed their entire culture, including PSA Airmotive, one of the finest engine shops ever. http://articles.latimes.com/1991-04-18/business/fi-156_1_san-diego
 
PHL, in the history of USAir, has always been pretty much a nothing place until the infighting started between the (PIT) Allegheny County government and USAir some years and bankruptcies ago.  The company then terminated the leases at the new PIT airport and transferred the flights to PHL.  They then de-hubbed PIT and sold off most of the maintenance base and test equipment for pennies on the dollar.  Just like the jobs along with it.  The airport went from being the newest, nicest,  and voted the best airport to fly into in the country, with 125 gates total, and 75 gates devoted to US, down to 6 gates, closed terminals and false walls, with the entire 25 gate commuter terminal turned into a parking lot.
 
Most of the people working  in PHL are from PIT.
 
PHL and PHX are now major hubs with protected line operations and no heavy work.
 
The weather in PIT is not “bad”.  50 to 80 miles to the north and the east are a different matter.  In fact, we have the same growing “zone” as Tennessee and Northern Georgia.  We ….HAD….. two brand new state of the art de-ice pads built to handle the few real bad days here.  They have been long outsourced to Integrated Deicing Services.
 
Not bragging here or stepping on toes, but we’ve been here for a long time.  Just a few things I remember and a little history lesson from the north side of the operation as I learn more and more about the American side of the operation.

Flew into PIT a couple of times, nice airport. Also went into the old AA hangar in BUF while on a Field trip with AA , looked more like the AA hangars in LGA to me, circa 1930. US owned them at the time but it still has the old AA logo on it. (I think AA abandoned it in 1983 with the first B scale contract) I'd consider relocating to Pittsburg, nice rolling green hills, big rivers, Union culture, lots of Irish Pubs and Italian restaurants,  good schools etc but never Tulsa, flat and brown and a lot of the people there still think the Earth is only 4000 years old.  Personally I'd love to see PIT survive but I don't think its likely. Ignorance is easier to exploit. 

 

[Kev3188]

Lots of really great perspectives from all corners in this thread...
 
...Now you just have to figure out how to collectively leverage your skill sets into a better tomorrow...

 

[Realityck]

The Juniority list was a major concession. In a Union shop if you are Riffed you should go wherever your seniority carries. Adhering to Seniority causes a lot of disruption for the company and extra expense (through multiple moving expenses and additional training) as well and makes them more likely to carry heavy or offer buyouts to avoid RIFs. But in a Union shop you should not have bottom of the industry pay, 2 cent night differentials, 5 holidays at half pay, 5 sick days, 1 week less vacation than everyone else either but is what Tulsa and Title II voted in. So fixing the "Juniority list" is of very low priority at the moment for everyone else in the system. 
 
The Juniority list was put in place to benefit the company, period. Scabs in leadership positions in the Union sold it something else. 

 
 
The current juniority list you’re complaining about replaced the old RIF system that required the most senior employee getting laid off to displace the most junior employee in the system - before the next most senior employee could displace the next most junior employee. That often resulted in forcing the senior riffed member to either displace to a station he or she didn’t want, or be forced to take layoff. If no one being laid off elected to displace the designated most junior employee in the system, the remaining riffed employees had no choice but to take layoff. San Juan was an example of a station that few members would displace to. I’m sure the difficulty of commuting to their former station where their family was probably still living had a lot to do with it.

 

[Rogallo]

Who cares what it replaced. It's still BS!
 
Guys getting riffed from AFW had to go to MIA when there are less senior guys they could bump at DFW. 
 
WTF kinda union goes for that crap?

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
The current juniority list you’re complaining about replaced the old RIF system that required the most senior employee getting laid off to displace the most junior employee in the system - before the next most senior employee could displace the next most junior employee. That often resulted in forcing the senior riffed member to either displace to a station he or she didn’t want, or be forced to take layoff. If no one being laid off elected to displace the designated most junior employee in the system, the remaining riffed employees had no choice but to take layoff. San Juan was an example of a station that few members would displace to. I’m sure the difficulty of commuting to their former station where their family was probably still living had a lot to do with it.

So in other words you are saying that the TWU had agreed to an even worse RIF system that violated seniority prior to what we have now? Most of the Unions have it where if you are riffed you could go to any station where your seniority would carry you. So If I'm in Tulsa, and the Junior guy is in NY but I'm senior to guys in DFW I can bump into DFW. Thats how Unions do it. 

 

[Realityck]

So in other words you are saying that the TWU had agreed to an even worse RIF system that violated seniority prior to what we have now? Most of the Unions have it where if you are riffed you could go to any station where your seniority would carry you. So If I'm in Tulsa, and the Junior guy is in NY but I'm senior to guys in DFW I can bump into DFW. Thats how Unions do it. 

 
 
I don't know who negotiated it since it was in place when I hired on. What other airlines have the system you describe besides Southwest (who rarely has layoffs)?

 

[blue collar]

 
 
I don't know who negotiated it since it was in place when I hired on. What other airlines have the system you describe besides Southwest (who rarely has layoffs)?

Us air has that system, you bump wherever you can hold. Works out better for us (labor) that way.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
 
I don't know who negotiated it since it was in place when I hired on. What other airlines have the system you describe besides Southwest (who rarely has layoffs)?

 
Realityck
 
I will have to ask a few of my UAL  pals but if they haven't changed the way the IAM at CAL/UAL did the bump process they have the same system.  Going where you want rather than where the union/company says. This makes for happier riffed employees. Eastern had that system as well.
 
The only Flaw to that system is you could be traveling to one city by car and before you get there you can be bumped and forced to go some where else its a night mare for the company, and the workers. But if you do get to go where you want, you can go to a city that you may have friends or family to cut down the out of pocket expenses while riffed.
 
The problem with that system as well is that everyone is on one list, so that is how AMT's bump facilities and GSE. But with the TWU and AA we have two different list and you can't bump title 2 unless you had/have time in that classification. There are plus and minuses with both systems. No system is perfect. But as we all know the last 3-4 rifs at AA were done so different that many got screwed, and locked out of cities the company union protected.
 
It's lets make a deal here at AA, the TWU gives the company something to keep certain bases protected and or shops. That way they can us that for later swing votes. It's usually the jr line guys who are bouncing around the country not T-Town or ex AFW guys. Usually what ever system is in place it is still there since more pressing issues with the contract get changed when it becomes amendable.  That was the case at NWA since they had the single list as well, EX IAM system. AMFA did not change it so the members could use the list as it was.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Adhering to Seniority causes a lot of disruption for the company and extra expense (through multiple moving expenses and additional training) as well and makes them more likely to carry heavy or offer buyouts to avoid RIFs. 

Tell that to the mid seniority employees that bumped into TULE and were denied their $12,500 and the sorry UNION that allowed the company to blatantly disregard the contract.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
I don't know who negotiated it since it was in place when I hired on. What other airlines have the system you describe besides Southwest (who rarely has layoffs)?

Actually I was referring to US and UAL. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Actually I was referring to US and UAL. 

Fair enough.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Speak what you feel is the truth and don't worry about offending anyone, if the truth offends thats their problem not yours. 
 
As far as DFW being affected there would be minimal if any disruption at DFW thanks to the anti-union concept of a "Juniority list" that we accepted in our contract. When it was sold to the members decades ago it was tied to a $12500 payment in addition to moving allowances, now of course the $12500 is gone but the Juniority list remains. Another example of the legacy of bad bargaining we have been subjected to. 
 
Lets say they decided to close Tulsa. Not likely but just suppose. The junior guys are in NY, LA, MIA and ORD. Figure only around 2800 or so could bump to the line. Of that 2800 probably half are over 55 and would retire. So that knocks the list down to 1400. Another 25% would stay and find work Locally so that knocks it down to around 700 to bump the system and even if everyone of them bumped the bottom guy in DFW has 692 people under him. Nearly all of them would have to bump into LAX, NYC or ORD , NYC would see nearly half their trained experienced line mechanics bumped out at one time by guys who have not been working the line, sure over time they would learn but on the line time is measured in minutes, not years. It would be so disruptive they they would be better off simply keeping them in Tulsa, or adding them to the headcount. 

In years past we had the 5% rule which held that no line station could have more than 5% of their headcount bumped in a RIF.  I know because of that the big layoffs in the 90s resulted in bumping all over the system.  I don't know if the 5% rule is still in the contract though.  I do think Tulsa will shrink a lot in the next few years.  I also don't see how AA keeps all the O/H bases open though.  Some will close and the rest will shrink.  I do still think doing Light C checks at line stations is a stupid idea.  The first time major corrosion or a crack resulting in a major repair is found.  My guess is they'll try to get permission to ferry it to Tulsa.  Most Light C's will be no problem on the line, but there will be problem acft too and we'll see how AA management reacts to that.  You can't defer some of the stuff that is found on initial inspection.

 

[lpbrian]

Light C checks are not done at line stations.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Light C checks are not done at line stations.

Our new management plans on moving them from Tulsa to line stations.  

 

[Slopoke]

Our new management plans on moving them from Tulsa to line stations.  

 
How long does it take to do a "light c"? I'm asking this because in the mid 80's, we used to do what FedEx called a light C on their DC-10 freighters at LAX. It took roughly 3 days.