Why Would You Not Support The New Plan?
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH
Veteran
- Oct 9, 2003
- 1,401
- 2
USA320pilot, Let me give you a dose of reality. Many of us(non-pilot's) in the airline industry are soon to be leaving the airline industry,because we can make more money with our skills doing other things outside of this industry. I got into this business because of the flight benefits 20 yrs ago,and it was only reason I stayed. Well,flight benefits are a joke these days. Let's see,work for minimum wage+benefits just to have a benefit of flight privilages that aren't what they used to be. I would rather be a paying passenger than non-rev these days! Fares are soo cheap! Tell you what USA320pilot, you take 50% paycut and I'll go back to working on Ford and Chevys. I'll still have my wages and benefits and well,you had yours.
Usa320pilot,
It just amazes me that you cannot realize WHY the other labor groups do not support the companys attempt at establishing a profitable corporation ONLY at LABORS expense.(job loss, paycuts,furloughs, loss of holiday,sick,pension ect.). What is even more disappointing is the companys insistance that Mainline employees keep subsidizing RJ operators.
Most Labor groups did not recieve thousands and thousands of shares of stock in the company like ALPA and some of management did. Perhaps this is why most pilots are willing to give more to see substantial amounts of money in return. Other Labor groups do not have 200,000 a year jobs either. That being said, the Other Labor groups understand why ALPA members are willng to give up more. What is disappointing to the other Labor groups is ALPA's failure to understand why the rest of LABOR is reluctant to give up more.
When the rest of LABOR has the same incentives as ALPA and MANAGEMENT,then and only then will there be movement.
answers to your questions.
1. LCC have far less and in some cases NO RJ operators to subsidize. also they have junior employees, both decisions made by management.
2. I agree Bankruptcy is the likely outcome, however it will likely be painful on RSA as well.
3. The Judge has an obligation to be fair!
4. Unemployment, Job trainning for a position where wages and benefits go UP instead of down!
5. See answer 4.
It just amazes me that you cannot realize WHY the other labor groups do not support the companys attempt at establishing a profitable corporation ONLY at LABORS expense.(job loss, paycuts,furloughs, loss of holiday,sick,pension ect.). What is even more disappointing is the companys insistance that Mainline employees keep subsidizing RJ operators.
Most Labor groups did not recieve thousands and thousands of shares of stock in the company like ALPA and some of management did. Perhaps this is why most pilots are willing to give more to see substantial amounts of money in return. Other Labor groups do not have 200,000 a year jobs either. That being said, the Other Labor groups understand why ALPA members are willng to give up more. What is disappointing to the other Labor groups is ALPA's failure to understand why the rest of LABOR is reluctant to give up more.
When the rest of LABOR has the same incentives as ALPA and MANAGEMENT,then and only then will there be movement.
answers to your questions.
1. LCC have far less and in some cases NO RJ operators to subsidize. also they have junior employees, both decisions made by management.
2. I agree Bankruptcy is the likely outcome, however it will likely be painful on RSA as well.
3. The Judge has an obligation to be fair!
4. Unemployment, Job trainning for a position where wages and benefits go UP instead of down!
5. See answer 4.
RowUnderDCA
Veteran
- Oct 6, 2002
- 2,123
- 1
Here's a shock:mweiss said:
Few (well, none) of the folks that post here are masters of rhetoric.
I recommend dealing with the ideas, not the style or motivation.
TheLarkAscending
Veteran
B-I-N-G-Omweiss said:
usairways_vote_NO
Veteran
- Sep 9, 2002
- 1,882
- 57
USA320Pilot respectfully says
I normally do not read very many posts on this forum because many of the posts lack decorum, however, I have read every comment in this topic.
What I find interesting is that there were very few answers to my questions and that most of the people who responded refused to discuss the facts. Why is that and why will they not constructively debate the questions?
USA320Pilot respectfully says
In my opinion, this message board has deteriorated in substance with less constructive debate and decorum, to one that's centered on comments that indicate emotion, bitterness, venting, and anger. That’s too bad because this could be a great vehicle to constructively discuss our collective issues.
I say:
If you don't read very many posts on this forum then how do you know it has deteriorated further or maybe even become more constructive? Why do you post your mantra if you don't even read peoples replies? To rile people up? Or is it you are so scared of losing your job you have brainwashed yourself and become so tunnel Visioned that you have become delusional and irrational. Given the large number of posts with you put up with no explanations , that you refuse to debate, is it any wonder that people become angry, bitter and vent at you? How can you have constructive debate if the other party doesn't read, debate or respond to you or even worse tells you you don't have a clue so just quit.
Take for instance this topic here and now, where is your debate? You come on here ask questions then put down peoples responses. Refuse to debate their answers then post your own views (or in your mind the facts) instead. Then I would imagine you are now done with this thread and will move on posting your mantra on a new thread.
USA320Pilot respectfully says
The simple truth is that every legacy airline is losing millions and millions of dollars
USA320Pilot respectfully says
Q. Why are low cost competitors making money and every legacy airline losing billions of dollars?
I say:
Which is millions or billions?
USA320Pilot respectfully says
The simple truth is that every legacy airline is losing millions and millions of dollars. American has taken deeper cuts than US Airways, United looks like it may not obtain the loan guarantee, Delta recently told the SEC it may need to file for bankruptcy, and both Northwest and Continental are fully leveraged and seeking cuts from its employees
I say:
Answer me this what in Usairways current business plan sets them apart from the legacy airlines? If everyone of them is in such deep trouble its obvious the current business model isn't working for any of them. What has Usairways done to overhaul their business model, in this new plan, to set them in a better position then the other legacy airlines?
USA320Pilot respectfully says
Deteriorating fundamentals. Airline costs are rising due to skyrocketing fuel prices and strict security requirements/costs imposed by the federal government. In fact, US Airways now projects the price of fuel will cost the company $220 million over budget for 2004 even with the company hedged at 35%.
B]I say:[/B]
All airlines (when I say all airlines in mean LCC's included) have the fuel cost some better hedged then others. Usairways is disadvantaged because of shorter stage lengths. All airlines pay the security costs all airlines have been reimbursed to a certain degree.
USA320Pilot respectfully says
Moreover, yield and revenue continues to erode with Internet Booking, relentless LCC expansion, Acela, and alternate ground transportation options for short-haul travel.
Are these fundamental issues management’s fault? Absolutely not, but without a successful implementation of the new business plan I believe the majority of employees will be worse off than if management is successful.
B]I say:[/B]
None I repeat none of your examples above are a result of high employee costs and none of the examples are addressed in the so called new business plan. It is more business as usual, blame employee costs, ask for cuts and put up a facade plan.
USA320Pilot respectfully says
Why is that and why will they not constructively debate the questions?
B]I say:[/B]
I gave you answers to your questions, you can't have a debate when the one who asked the questions won't debate the answers. So I would say you are the one refusing to debate. I knew when you posted these question what your intent was it wasn't to debate them but to answer them yourself and move on.
In conclusion I will debate you on yours answers to your own questions as soon as you debate my answers that you either totally ignored or conveniently lumped into the non answer pile.
I normally do not read very many posts on this forum because many of the posts lack decorum, however, I have read every comment in this topic.
What I find interesting is that there were very few answers to my questions and that most of the people who responded refused to discuss the facts. Why is that and why will they not constructively debate the questions?
USA320Pilot respectfully says
In my opinion, this message board has deteriorated in substance with less constructive debate and decorum, to one that's centered on comments that indicate emotion, bitterness, venting, and anger. That’s too bad because this could be a great vehicle to constructively discuss our collective issues.
I say:
If you don't read very many posts on this forum then how do you know it has deteriorated further or maybe even become more constructive? Why do you post your mantra if you don't even read peoples replies? To rile people up? Or is it you are so scared of losing your job you have brainwashed yourself and become so tunnel Visioned that you have become delusional and irrational. Given the large number of posts with you put up with no explanations , that you refuse to debate, is it any wonder that people become angry, bitter and vent at you? How can you have constructive debate if the other party doesn't read, debate or respond to you or even worse tells you you don't have a clue so just quit.
Take for instance this topic here and now, where is your debate? You come on here ask questions then put down peoples responses. Refuse to debate their answers then post your own views (or in your mind the facts) instead. Then I would imagine you are now done with this thread and will move on posting your mantra on a new thread.
USA320Pilot respectfully says
The simple truth is that every legacy airline is losing millions and millions of dollars
USA320Pilot respectfully says
Q. Why are low cost competitors making money and every legacy airline losing billions of dollars?
I say:
Which is millions or billions?
USA320Pilot respectfully says
The simple truth is that every legacy airline is losing millions and millions of dollars. American has taken deeper cuts than US Airways, United looks like it may not obtain the loan guarantee, Delta recently told the SEC it may need to file for bankruptcy, and both Northwest and Continental are fully leveraged and seeking cuts from its employees
I say:
Answer me this what in Usairways current business plan sets them apart from the legacy airlines? If everyone of them is in such deep trouble its obvious the current business model isn't working for any of them. What has Usairways done to overhaul their business model, in this new plan, to set them in a better position then the other legacy airlines?
USA320Pilot respectfully says
Deteriorating fundamentals. Airline costs are rising due to skyrocketing fuel prices and strict security requirements/costs imposed by the federal government. In fact, US Airways now projects the price of fuel will cost the company $220 million over budget for 2004 even with the company hedged at 35%.
B]I say:[/B]
All airlines (when I say all airlines in mean LCC's included) have the fuel cost some better hedged then others. Usairways is disadvantaged because of shorter stage lengths. All airlines pay the security costs all airlines have been reimbursed to a certain degree.
USA320Pilot respectfully says
Moreover, yield and revenue continues to erode with Internet Booking, relentless LCC expansion, Acela, and alternate ground transportation options for short-haul travel.
Are these fundamental issues management’s fault? Absolutely not, but without a successful implementation of the new business plan I believe the majority of employees will be worse off than if management is successful.
B]I say:[/B]
None I repeat none of your examples above are a result of high employee costs and none of the examples are addressed in the so called new business plan. It is more business as usual, blame employee costs, ask for cuts and put up a facade plan.
USA320Pilot respectfully says
Why is that and why will they not constructively debate the questions?
B]I say:[/B]
I gave you answers to your questions, you can't have a debate when the one who asked the questions won't debate the answers. So I would say you are the one refusing to debate. I knew when you posted these question what your intent was it wasn't to debate them but to answer them yourself and move on.
In conclusion I will debate you on yours answers to your own questions as soon as you debate my answers that you either totally ignored or conveniently lumped into the non answer pile.
autofixer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,804
- 241
IT IS SIMPLE:
Revenue < Cost = Loss!
Revenue > Cost = Profit!
Management needs to fix the revenue part of the equation, not just the cost part. I know that they claim there is intense pricing pressures involved, but they have to find a way to increase revenue! That, IS WHAT THEY WENT TO SCHOOL FOR AND WHAT THEY ARE PAID TO DO! If revenue continues to come in less than cost...UAIR cannot contiue to do business.
Revenue < Cost = Loss!
Revenue > Cost = Profit!
Management needs to fix the revenue part of the equation, not just the cost part. I know that they claim there is intense pricing pressures involved, but they have to find a way to increase revenue! That, IS WHAT THEY WENT TO SCHOOL FOR AND WHAT THEY ARE PAID TO DO! If revenue continues to come in less than cost...UAIR cannot contiue to do business.
[/QUOTE]What I find interesting is that there were very few answers to my questions and that most of the people who responded refused to discuss the facts. Why is that and why will they not constructively debate the questions?USA320Pilot said:
USA320Pilot I can answer your question.Usa320pilot,you do not understand, that it is your credibility.Most people on here are sick of your lack of predictions .They are sick of you sleeping with management.They are sick of your ego.Eg. after almost 3 years on this board you cannot figure out why no one will respond to your questions.Maybe if you did read every post you would understand why people don't respond.You cannot selectivly post and respond at your free will.Why don't you listen for once instead of posting.......Get a clue! Disrespectfully Yours Jetlaagd
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
USA320,
Since you appear to proclaim you have "inside" information and have seen the business plan 1,000,000 times...
fess up and post the major job layoffs planed if these concessions go through! Or are you too afraid of a "NO" vote if you tell the "whole story".
I've been waiting for you to post it, and you are only spewing a portion of the plan. :angry:
Since you appear to proclaim you have "inside" information and have seen the business plan 1,000,000 times...
fess up and post the major job layoffs planed if these concessions go through! Or are you too afraid of a "NO" vote if you tell the "whole story".
I've been waiting for you to post it, and you are only spewing a portion of the plan. :angry:
TheLarkAscending
Veteran
Actually it is not a shock.RowUnderDCA said:
No one has claimed to be or seems to want the title master of rhetoric, however, someone has earned it.
Recommendations come and go. Everyone will decide for themselves what is best in their own particular circumstance with or without the daily lectures and diatribe. One individual hacking away at the keyboard will not change the decisions made by thousands. Quite frankly the replies and comments are made because of the content, structure and tone (which is based solely in the author's motivations) -- all of which every poster has a right to comment on.
Now that's just silly. You might as well ask them to convert lead into gold. US Airways has the highest RASM in the industry, and has held that distinction for over a decade. And yet you conclude that it's not enough???autofixer said:
Guess what? If all of the legacy airlines had US Airways' existing RASM, there would be only one showing a loss. Three guesses as to which airline that would be.
So, no. I don't see how revenue is a problem at US.
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
Mweiss,
Your post above just substantiates how very very little you know about USAirways financial problems...
Put your books down. The problems at U are not addressed in your academic journals.
I won't debate you either...its an exercise in futility and no matter what anyone posts, you can't concepteptulize its validity.
Your post above just substantiates how very very little you know about USAirways financial problems...
Put your books down. The problems at U are not addressed in your academic journals.
I won't debate you either...its an exercise in futility and no matter what anyone posts, you can't concepteptulize its validity.
Oliver Twist
Advanced
1. Why are low cost competitors making money and every legacy airline losing billions of dollars?
2. If US Airways continues to lose money and violates the terms of the loan guarantee, what is the likely outcome for the company?
3. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and elects to execute a formal reorganization, what’s the likely outcome for each labor group?
4. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and liquidates, what benefits do employees receive?
5. If US Airways fails, what are your specific job options?
Of the 5 questions above, I feel I should only answer the last one. You see, I found a new job already and sadly I had to quit after 21 years with nothing but my 401-k and a feeble retirement that was frozen in 1992.
When I began this career I was excited and in awe. I was finally on the other side of the fence, the airside. It was a great feeling that I still remember vividly. Since the beginning I have done nothing but go backwards as I moved up the pay scale. My senority fell each year, my pay was stretched, frozen and sucked back in to finance worthless hair-brain ideas. If I sound bitter I am. Not at the US Airways family I came to know, but the idiots in charge. It was a dark chapter in my life that is over. The moving backward is done.
What am I doing now? I am still at the airport but working for the only entity that will survive no matter who comes or goes - The AIRPORT AUTHORITY. While many think the AA employees are not worth the time to get to know, in my opinion, it's the only smart play out there for one who wishes to stay in aviation. Get to know them and search the job postings whereever you are. Get ready for what sadly seems enevitable.
Unemployment? Think again if it's what you think will prop you up till you get a "real job". Unemployment is for those who had no vision and no planning and it sucks.
I do hope U makes it, I really do. But if you believe there is no chance, get moving and make the move while you can.
The stress level I face now is almost ZERO compared to this time last year. Do I miss it? Of course I do. Am I glad I made the switch? There are no adjectives worthy of my answer on that one. YES!
One more thing, people actually listen to what I think now and act on it. What a great ego stroke that is.
As a side note, I appreciate the links to the stories and articles 320 posts. I'd never find them on my own. So "Thank you" to 320. I don't have to agree with his views at all, but I do like the fact that at least he offers something constructive instead of destructive to say. Agree or not, it's your choice.
My name is Philip and I am a former agent in RDU. To those who know me, I wish only the best for all of you. To those who do not know me, thanks for your time and good luck to all.
2. If US Airways continues to lose money and violates the terms of the loan guarantee, what is the likely outcome for the company?
3. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and elects to execute a formal reorganization, what’s the likely outcome for each labor group?
4. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and liquidates, what benefits do employees receive?
5. If US Airways fails, what are your specific job options?
Of the 5 questions above, I feel I should only answer the last one. You see, I found a new job already and sadly I had to quit after 21 years with nothing but my 401-k and a feeble retirement that was frozen in 1992.
When I began this career I was excited and in awe. I was finally on the other side of the fence, the airside. It was a great feeling that I still remember vividly. Since the beginning I have done nothing but go backwards as I moved up the pay scale. My senority fell each year, my pay was stretched, frozen and sucked back in to finance worthless hair-brain ideas. If I sound bitter I am. Not at the US Airways family I came to know, but the idiots in charge. It was a dark chapter in my life that is over. The moving backward is done.
What am I doing now? I am still at the airport but working for the only entity that will survive no matter who comes or goes - The AIRPORT AUTHORITY. While many think the AA employees are not worth the time to get to know, in my opinion, it's the only smart play out there for one who wishes to stay in aviation. Get to know them and search the job postings whereever you are. Get ready for what sadly seems enevitable.
Unemployment? Think again if it's what you think will prop you up till you get a "real job". Unemployment is for those who had no vision and no planning and it sucks.
I do hope U makes it, I really do. But if you believe there is no chance, get moving and make the move while you can.
The stress level I face now is almost ZERO compared to this time last year. Do I miss it? Of course I do. Am I glad I made the switch? There are no adjectives worthy of my answer on that one. YES!
One more thing, people actually listen to what I think now and act on it. What a great ego stroke that is.
As a side note, I appreciate the links to the stories and articles 320 posts. I'd never find them on my own. So "Thank you" to 320. I don't have to agree with his views at all, but I do like the fact that at least he offers something constructive instead of destructive to say. Agree or not, it's your choice.
My name is Philip and I am a former agent in RDU. To those who know me, I wish only the best for all of you. To those who do not know me, thanks for your time and good luck to all.
One more question should have been added:
If U meets its demise and ceases to exist, what board will the usual posters flee to? Will you create the former employees of U board or will you try to tear down Southwest or JetBlue because of their LCC wages and benefits?
A320 makes very good points in his questions that all U employees should think about.
Oh, one more:
Why do people flock to read his posts, more than other poster topics started by others? Just curious.......
If U meets its demise and ceases to exist, what board will the usual posters flee to? Will you create the former employees of U board or will you try to tear down Southwest or JetBlue because of their LCC wages and benefits?
A320 makes very good points in his questions that all U employees should think about.
Oh, one more:
Why do people flock to read his posts, more than other poster topics started by others? Just curious.......
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