Why Would You Not Support The New Plan?

[usairways_vote_NO]

First off USA320Pilot the title of your topic has nothing to do with your questions you asked. You seem to be trying to say if you don't agree with every single part of the plan, that we know right now, then the outcome is out on the street and if you go along with it Usairways will be again a mighty airline. Black or white, well that is bull. What bothers me most about you posts is not you saying without these cuts Usairways won't make it but when you say that with these cuts Usairways will make it and prosper. Without any change to the culture or major changes to operation.

USA320Pilot Says:

In my opinion, this message board has deteriorated in substance with less constructive debate and decorum, to one that's centered on comments that indicate emotion, bitterness, venting, and anger. That’s too bad because this could be a great vehicle to constructively discuss our collective issues.

I say:

I disagree I think there is plenty of debate both rational and emotional. There is also bitterness, venting and anger as you say and its not only directed at the company but at you USA320pilot. You are one that refuses to debate. Your entire existence on this board is to...

1. Post links to news items some about Usairways some not and put you spin on them.

2. Make predictions and state them as fact.

3 To beat you chest when you finally snag a nut out of your endless predictions and especially ask who posted it first.

4. Then there is the mantra about how you have everything figured out about USAirways now using your so called inside sources, infinite wisdom and I'm never wrong attitude. You post it like that the one and only path to take or its all over.

5. Then there is the old if you don't like the way I layed it out then just quit and let me keep my job attitude you have.

6. Then there is going back to #4 your posting of your mantra over over and over again trip like you are trying to brainwash everybody.

7. After you post it you rarely come back to defend it you just post it again somewhere else and now you want a debate? Nobody wants to debate you because you just say the same thing over and over again and if they don't agree you tell them to quit.

8. The preaching that if you only give more everything will be all right.

Now you ask these hypothetical some of which no one knows answer ever you, though you may say or thing you do.

USA320Pilot says:
1. Why are low cost competitors making money and every legacy airline losing billions of dollars?

I say: First I ask what do you mean "billions of dollars". Is that all legacy's combined on a annual basis or what?

I would say you can't compare them they are run completely different with cultures. If you ever think Usairways will get their unit cost down to a Southwest's you are sadly mistaken. Unless Usairways puts every single part of the operation
on the table and starts a major revamping, like they want to do with every union's contract, they will have a hard time making a go of it.

USA320Pilot says:
2. If US Airways continues to lose money and violates the terms of the loan guarantee, what is the likely outcome for the company?

I say : I would think there would be some type of restructuring of the loan terms just like before.

USA320Pilot says:
3. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and elects to execute a formal reorganization, what’s the likely outcome for each labor group?

I say: That is an impossible question to answer. I don't know and you surely don't know even if you read your tea leaves 1000 times on that one. So don't start you insider knowledge mantra I won't have any of you fantasy predictions.

USA320Pilot says:
4. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and liquidates, what benefits do employees receive?

I say: Unemployment, Cobra, pension plans protected up to certain amount.
If you get layed off you get severance anything else?

You also get the freedom to choose a new destiny , start a new path and better yourself.

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/Newsroom/fsbankruptcy.html
http://www.usatoday.com/careers/news/2001-05-25-layoffs.htm

USA320Pilot says:
5. If US Airways fails, what are your specific job options?

I say: I never said I was employee of Usairways. But I would say Newspapers, Networking friends and associates, Internet search, Resumes, College, Technical schools, old skills, Etc

Great questions for all employees to be thinking about thank for asking and getting everyone's gray matter working. Hope you are USA320Pilot

 

[Pacemaker]

Ok, I'll take a stab at it.

1. Why are low cost competitors making money and every legacy airline losing billions of dollars?

A complicated question with many answers. Starting with a clean sheet of paper like jetBlue, Frontier, etc... is a factor. Smaller, more nimble size. In the case of Southwest, knowing your niche and staying within yourself, year after year, and doing it exceedingly well. The legacy carriers try to be all things to all people and succeed only in being mediocre at everything. But not all legacy carriers are losing "Billions". Eventually after a couple liquidations and some consolidation, there are going to be surviving, profitable hub-and-spoke carriers. I highly doubt US Airways will be one of them, regardless of the outcome of "Crossroads IV, V, VI", or whaterver the count is up to.

In the case of US Airways, I believe many of our struggles stem from a weak and one-dimensional route-structure with weak hubs that lacks a critical strong midwest or western hub.

2. If US Airways continues to lose money and violates the terms of the loan guarantee, what is the likely outcome for the company?

Ultimately, either the Eastern or, at best, the TWA scenario.

3. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and elects to execute a formal reorganization, what’s the likely outcome for each labor group?

I'm assuming ALPA will be the only group to ratify (yet another) concessionary package prior to filing. ALPA will take it in the shorts but will survive as an entity. As for the other groups, I would guess that if your job does not require some kind of special certification (mechanic, dispatcher, pilot), and/or if your job is not absolutely essential to moving an airplane on a revenue flight, then you will no longer have a job.

4. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and liquidates, what benefits do employees receive?

We all know the answer to that one.

5. If US Airways fails, what are your specific job options?

Like most of us, the hope of starting over and eventually pulling even or ahead of where I'm at now, for a company that doesn't give me an ulcer every time I think of it.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

U.S.AIRWAYS is the TITANIC of the airline industry,and has already hit the ICEBERG! It's taking on water fast and the ship named CHAPTER 11 is too far away to get to the disaster scene on time. I would suggest that instead of trying to save a MORTALLY wounded ship by giving more concessions, SCUTTLE the ship and find another airline job or another career!

 

[Light Years]

U.S.AIRWAYS is the TITANIC of the airline industry,and has already hit the ICEBERG! It's taking on water fast and the ship named CHAPTER 11 is too far away to get to the disaster scene on time. I would suggest that instead of trying to save a MORTALLY wounded ship by giving more concessions, SCUTTLE the ship and find another airline job or another career!

Well, in that case, you better move over and share that peice of plywood. I dont know what Leo was thinking. You wouldnt see my ass freezing in the water like that.

Nor would you see me throwing that rock in the water either. But anyway.

 

[700UW]

Vote No, AWESOME!

 

[OldGuyinPA]

1. Why are low cost competitors making money and every legacy airline losing billions of dollars?

Pilots...and their associated cost....

2. If US Airways continues to lose money and violates the terms of the loan guarantee, what is the likely outcome for the company?

What do you think....

3. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and elects to execute a formal reorganization, what’s the likely outcome for each labor group?

A new job...

4. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and liquidates, what benefits do employees receive?

New job..New benefits....

5. If US Airways fails, what are your specific job options?


Barista @ Starbucks.....That's all I'm qualified for according to The World of You...



Actually....I'm waiting for any buyout....

 

[kiloromeo]

1. Why are low cost competitors making money and every legacy airline losing billions of dollars?
Simple...they don't have ALPA...

 

[wings396]

The Mart and Mcdees pay less my friend than 13/hr.

The word on the street is no one wants to hire any former employees with the "USAIR STINK".

Every one is well aware of our attitude, work ethic,etc....

That runs the entire group, not singling out just pilots, f/a, mtc. or anyone else

I believe we either make this into a LCC, or we will be changing industries.

If your job gets dumped for technology, or just outsourced i,m sorry.....

I don't remember any tears when my engineer seat left.!!!

Move up, or move out its your choice.

They may not start at $13, but if they company cuts us lower those options will be right inline with our wages. As I have found out there are several jobs in my area that will start me at MORE that I currently earn, so $13 won't be impossible to get.
Now I am sure you will say " Why don't you just leave for another job".
I will beat you to the punch on that one to save time. As many of us here have 20+ years of service, I will hang in to the end as I have many sick days in the bank as well as maximum vacation time to use each year. If the company folds and I have to move on, I will do so at that time. Please remember that a lot of us here took this job due to an interest of aviation, not for the big $$$$ paychecks.
We like to be around the A/C as it is an interesting and exciting career. If they want to beat us down to the Walmart wages for working with and around multi-million dollar A/C, the heck with EM. From your postion a low wage job may be hard to fathom, but that is where many of us are, and the company wants 3/4 of the workforce to be there as well. Sure JetBlue costs and wages are lower, as they have only been around for 3-4 years. They will reach a higer rate as time goes on won't they?

 

[Finish or Ignore]

I will ask again that respondents please provide specific, mature answers to each question and not “smart-aleckâ€￾ comments.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot


I would consider questions 1-4 "smart-aleck" questions. Anyone with enough skill to turn their computer on knows the answers.

Question 5 is none of your bee's wax.

It's a big ugly world. Things don't always turn out like we would like. This may be one of those times.

 

[totobird]

Let's all face the facts. This late in the game 3 things need to happen to save USAirways.

1. A 30 to 40 % paycut for all workgroups......the unions and members will never go for that.

2. A dramatic drop in fuel prices......as in the past when fuel prices go up they only drop back slightly.

3. Another bailout from the government......they have all but told us they anticipate consolidation and the well is dry.


I have kept in touch with several people that I worked with in the past and believe me there is life after USAirways. A couple have started their own businesses and love it and the others all have found jobs.

 

[3speed]

First off USA320Pilot the title of your topic has nothing to do with your questions you asked. You seem to be trying to say if you don't agree with every single part of the plan, that we know right now, then the outcome is out on the street and if you go along with it Usairways will be again a mighty airline. Black or white, well that is bull. What bothers me most about you posts is not you saying without these cuts Usairways won't make it but when you say that with these cuts Usairways will make it and prosper. Without any change to the culture or major changes to operation.

USA320Pilot Says:

In my opinion, this message board has deteriorated in substance with less constructive debate and decorum, to one that's centered on comments that indicate emotion, bitterness, venting, and anger. That’s too bad because this could be a great vehicle to constructively discuss our collective issues.

I say:

I disagree I think there is plenty of debate both rational and emotional. There is also bitterness, venting and anger as you say and its not only directed at the company but at you USA320pilot. You are one that refuses to debate. Your entire existence on this board is to...

1. Post links to news items some about Usairways some not and put you spin on them.

2. Make predictions and state them as fact.

3 To beat you chest when you finally snag a nut out of your endless predictions and especially ask who posted it first.

4. Then there is the mantra about how you have everything figured out about USAirways now using your so called inside sources, infinite wisdom and I'm never wrong attitude. You post it like that the one and only path to take or its all over.

5. Then there is the old if you don't like the way I layed it out then just quit and let me keep my job attitude you have.

6. Then there is going back to #4 your posting of your mantra over over and over again trip like you are trying to brainwash everybody.

7. After you post it you rarely come back to defend it you just post it again somewhere else and now you want a debate? Nobody wants to debate you because you just say the same thing over and over again and if they don't agree you tell them to quit.

8. The preaching that if you only give more everything will be all right.

Now you ask these hypothetical some of which no one knows answer ever you, though you may say or thing you do.

USA320Pilot says:
1. Why are low cost competitors making money and every legacy airline losing billions of dollars?

I say: First I ask what do you mean "billions of dollars". Is that all legacy's combined on a annual basis or what?

I would say you can't compare them they are run completely different with cultures. If you ever think Usairways will get their unit cost down to a Southwest's you are sadly mistaken. Unless Usairways puts every single part of the operation
on the table and starts a major revamping, like they want to do with every union's contract, they will have a hard time making a go of it.

USA320Pilot says:
2. If US Airways continues to lose money and violates the terms of the loan guarantee, what is the likely outcome for the company?

I say : I would think there would be some type of restructuring of the loan terms just like before.

USA320Pilot says:
3. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and elects to execute a formal reorganization, what’s the likely outcome for each labor group?

I say: That is an impossible question to answer. I don't know and you surely don't know even if you read your tea leaves 1000 times on that one. So don't start you insider knowledge mantra I won't have any of you fantasy predictions.

USA320Pilot says:
4. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and liquidates, what benefits do employees receive?

I say: Unemployment, Cobra, pension plans protected up to certain amount.
If you get layed off you get severance anything else?

You also get the freedom to choose a new destiny , start a new path and better yourself.

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/Newsroom/fsbankruptcy.html
http://www.usatoday.com/careers/news/2001-05-25-layoffs.htm

USA320Pilot says:
5. If US Airways fails, what are your specific job options?

I say: I never said I was employee of Usairways. But I would say Newspapers, Networking friends and associates, Internet search, Resumes, College, Technical schools, old skills, Etc

Great questions for all employees to be thinking about thank for asking and getting everyone's gray matter working. Hope you are USA320Pilot

For clarity sake could those of you in the Union Communications offices please identify yourselves as such, and the same for the management side of the house, so those of us who are meager mortals in this quagmire of endless BS can tell what the REAL people from this airline think.

PS great us of my dues, the unions and the company both have so much waste in them we would all be better off if they both reorganized.

 

[USA320Pilot]

I normally do not read very many posts on this forum because many of the posts lack decorum, however, I have read every comment in this topic.

What I find interesting is that there were very few answers to my questions and that most of the people who responded refused to discuss the facts. Why is that and why will they not constructively debate the questions?

The simple truth is that every legacy airline is losing millions and millions of dollars. American has taken deeper cuts than US Airways, United looks like it may not obtain the loan guarantee, Delta recently told the SEC it may need to file for bankruptcy, and both Northwest and Continental are fully leveraged and seeking cuts from its employees.

Why? Deteriorating fundamentals. Airline costs are rising due to skyrocketing fuel prices and strict security requirements/costs imposed by the federal government. In fact, US Airways now projects the price of fuel will cost the company $220 million over budget for 2004 even with the company hedged at 35%.

See Today's Story

Moreover, yield and revenue continues to erode with Internet Booking, relentless LCC expansion, Acela, and alternate ground transportation options for short-haul travel.

Are these fundamental issues management’s fault? Absolutely not, but without a successful implementation of the new business plan I believe the majority of employees will be worse off than if management is successful.

Let me take a moment and answer each question I asked to begin this topic:

Q. Why are low cost competitors making money and every legacy airline losing billions of dollars?

A. The LCC’s have lower unit costs and then can pass the savings onto the customer with lower fares. Why? They distribute their product at a cost lower than the legacy airlines. This is no different than what has occurred to the steel or retail industry. In the past companies like Montgomery Ward and Sears could not adjust to the new economic reality that consumers want to buy a product at the lowest possible price and then they worry about quality. For example, when you shop today do you go buy a product at Wal-Mart, Sam’s Club, Lowe’s, Costco, Home Depot or Sears? The key to building a better mouse trap in the airline industry is to distribute your product at a competitive cost structure across-the-board and as Bruce Lakefield told employees, "every employee group will need to compare itself to the industry’s ‘best parctices’ (and that) no single work group will subsidize another’s lack of marketplace competitiveness, nor can employees subsidize waste or mistakes made by management."

Q. If US Airways continues to lose money and violates the terms of the loan guarantee, what is the likely outcome for the company?

A. Bankruptcy – where the company has let each union know the outcome will not be pretty and likely more painful on employees than a consensual restructuring.

Q. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and elects to execute a formal reorganization, what’s the likely outcome for each labor group?

A. Management has told the SEC it may need to execute a second "judicial restructuring", which would be a Chapter 11 restructuring. Moreover, David Bronner told ALPA in an open meeting in Charlotte that no single employee group "will bring the company down". In private conversation the company has let it be known that if the company is forced into bankruptcy by labor, the company will seek deeper cuts in bankruptcy court, where we all know the company was successful on obtaining everyone of its significant desires during the last formal reorganization.

I suspect that for most of the employees an America West type contract is better than what they can earn outside of US Airways. In addition, it's very evident that people are flocking to the LCC's and RJ operators for jobs. Why? They're better than what else is available, therefore, it appears it would be better for most employees to remain at US Airways versus starting over making less money out of the industry or working for a LCC/RJ operator.

Q. If US Airways enters bankruptcy and liquidates, what benefits do employees receive?

A. None, except unemployment and possibly other government aid. Even if a person loses their job over the new labor accords they will be better off if the company survives. With the company in operation a furloughed employee would receive severance pay, unemployment, COBRA medical insurance, recall rights, pass privileges, MDA/J4J opportunities (some employees), and recall rights.

Q. If US Airways fails, what are your specific job options?

A. In my opinion, US Airways employees would be better off with the new labor accords than what could be expected otherwise. This is especially true for employees in large stations who would see unemployment high and new job competition very strong.

There is no question these potential changes are distasteful, but what would it be like to finally have a competitive cost structure? What would it be worth to have an employee stress level comparative to our colleagues at Southwest Airlines? What would it be like to know you can work for this company and retire? How would this effect our health and outlook if the company could grow, add aircraft, and have a strong route network?

The company believes the new US Airways will offer significant rewards, which include:

-- Ability to grow again.

-- Resources to invest in the company.

-- Plan offensively, not defensively as in the past.

-- Add international destinations.

-- Be the first legacy carrier too truly adept to the new market reality.

-- Share in the upside with both equity and profit sharing.

-- Re-establish the leadership, confidence, and pace-setter position on the east.

Therefore, what is peace of mind worth?

For those who are angry and would rather see the company "burn to the ground" instead of accepting an America West type of contracts, I believe former CEO Dave Siegel made a valid point during his first and only webcast. He went so far as to encourage employees to leave the company if new work contracts aren't agreeable, rather than to fight the change. "If it doesn't work, I'd encourage you to support the change, and then go on and find something else," he said. "It's better to have a job when you're trying to find another job."

From this observer’s perch, Siegel’s comments in the paragraph above are valid. It’s better to have a job while you are seeking another job than to have just unemployment.

In my opinion, there is continued reason to believe that if US Airways is successful in restructuring the company into a viable stand-alone company, which evolves into the first legacy network carrier/LCC hybrid, the airline will enter into a corporate transaction and could be the surviving business enterprise. Furthermore, US Airways’ brash moves could throw the other network carriers, especially United Airlines and Delta Air Lines, into turmoil where US Airways and its employees could be beneficiaries at the expense of the other airlines who will also be forced to restructure towards the profitable LCC business model.

There is mounting reason to believe that United Airlines will not receive the loan guarantee and as such may need to seek other alternatives, where a restructured US Airways and other airlines could be beneficiaries according to recent comments made to ALPA by US Airways’ management.

Loan guarantee for United "far less likely" to fly - Airline's costs still called too high

See Story

Plan B possible - Without federal aid, United would need new finance strategy

See Story

Personally, I believe United will get a "conditional" loan guarantee with deeper cuts required by the ATSB that will put the employees directly in the "cross hairs", which could include pension termination and an America West type of contract. Sound familiar?

In conclusion, I believe for all employees it would be better to participate in the transformation plan and then if the changes are not acceptable seek a new job. Why is this the best option? All emotion aside, it takes the pressure off of having no income (except unemployment for a few weeks) and medical insurance while searching for a new position. Furthermore, as evidenced by furloghees accepting J4J and the Mainline/Express positions, there are people within our ranks willing to work in the industry for pay and benefits less than America West.

Therefore, I suspect the majority of the current mainline employees would remain working at US Airways following the successful implementation of the plan. Thus, what benefit would it have to not help the company survive and let those employees who want to remain at the company post restructuring do so.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[700UW]

The title of the thread does not match the original post, this thread should just be locked.

 

[cavalier]

The title of the thread does not match the original post, this thread should just be locked.

I'll second that and add that a certain captain needs locked up for his own good until he's better.

 

[mweiss]

What I find interesting is that there were very few answers to my questions and that most of the people who responded refused to discuss the facts. Why is that and why will they not constructively debate the questions?

Because, while the topic title was interesting, when taken with your five points, the whole thing comes across as another Save This A320 Pilot's Career topic.

Whether that was your intent or not, that's what it sounds like.