Why Tim Nelson is Dangerous to IAM-represented employees at United Airlines

[737823]

The principle that he defends these atrocious CBAs and actions of the IAM and covers it up with democracy, its the same concept. Democracy is far from perfect and can have many flaws, its just outrageous 700 defends this crap saying the membership wanted it. You yourself said it was a pathetic agreement and had pathetic voter turnout.

Josh

 

[T5towbar]

For some reason, I haven't been able to post.
But here's my take on things:
 
I thought that this election would be closer, but the majority spoke. People just wanted their money, and a lot more are tired of fighting, since IMHO we weren't going to get a better deal. Due to the bad economy, some scope would be relinquished, and I didn't like it. Especially from a bankruptcy contract. But there was an element of fear because you had a majority of members not protected in any form, and the company was going to go forward with plans, especially on the sCO side. So a lot of us had mixed emotions about this deal because we really wasn't going to gain very much financially from it. It was basically to raise up sUA. But the main focus was job protection in some form. With the insourcing slated to happen, and the early out numbers reached for some groups, we won't know what happens next.
 
 

Yes Kev you know full well I have been an active participant in this discussion. Face it the IAM wanted the dues and used coercion and fear tactics to collaborate with UA to get the job done. Tim did the honorable thing educating people about the dangers of this. And now it has lowered the bar for everyone at other carriers, AA will probably look to whittle down 17 protected stations, DL may do the same too. Just wondering as a DL employee do you worry about the security of your station and it being vendored out?

Josh

 
It was going to happen anyway, slowly or fast that a bunch of stations would be vendored out. So it might be by the time this contract is expired, about 35 or so +/- left.  It will lower the bar for everybody else, so to speak, but DL and AA have their own outsourcing arms anyway, so that is automatic cost savings for both carriers. Plus getting the dues from sCO  ATW is was a main factor for the IAM as well. But the fight to continue wasn't there. Sadly, eventually it was gonna happen anyway, since the pilots sucked the air out of the room for everybody else. The MX will be coming back to the table after this; and from what I hear, the FA's are still miles apart, so they will have to overpay them to get them together. This month's quarterly P/L statement didn't help things either. We are still working as two airlines, and the so called 'efficiencies' aren't taken into affect yet. Mostly due to management decisions: the gutting of sUA's smaller M/L fleet (the 737); and the overreliance of 50 seaters -  sCO, which leaves us at a disadvantage on the domestic front. Plus when US leaves for AA, there will be a bigger hole in the network as well.
 

Of course but if it were DL you would be all over it and how they intimidate people, use fear tactics, etc.

You conveniently skipped over the rest of my post above, the IAM screwed this up big time. sUA should have had an agreement before the joint agreement. The district gave away tremendous leverage by doing this, they were happy to collaborate with UA in the hopes of getting dues payers sooner by pursuing a joint agreement first. So the IAM won in early March 2012 and they just now got an awful contract full of concessions that lacks scope. That's not nearly as long as IAM at US or negotiations at AA dragged on, 700 et al keep insisting the RLA allows company to prolong the process, 18 months for a joint CBA actually isn't all that bad. Again all the pay rates and enhanced vacation & holidays may look nice on a summary sheet but w/o scope it is insignificant.

Josh

 
That's the main reason why we are in this situation. They didn't get a deal for sUA before going into joint negotiations. That should have been the main goal at the time, bring them up in pay, and then negotiate jointly, since we at sCO already had a deal (albeit a bad one).
 
I don't have the breakdown in stations, but my station had a pretty decent turnout (for a station where it notorious for not voting for anything), mainly on the ramp side. From what I hear, the majority of us voted "No". But I heard that ORD and IAH was overwhelmingly a "Yes" vote. Some of the bigger line stations was a "Yes" vote as well. I didn't think that the union will break it down, but someone like Tim would know the true numbers.
 
We are in for a bumpy ride now. Next issue is the seniority list............

 

[Kev3188]

The principle that he defends these atrocious CBAs and actions of the IAM and covers it up with democracy, its the same concept. Democracy is far from perfect and can have many flaws, its just outrageous 700 defends this crap saying the membership wanted it. You yourself said it was a pathetic agreement and had pathetic voter turnout.

 
 
That comparison is not okay.
 
I am against any CBA that proves regressive. 
 
I am against anything that fosters voter apathy (in any election).
 
I am against equating organized labor with suicide bombers.

 

[Kev3188]

For some reason, I haven't been able to post.

 
 
Nobody has; the board's been down.
 
 
 
 
 

I don't have the breakdown in stations, but my station had a pretty decent turnout (for a station where it notorious for not voting for anything), mainly on the ramp side. From what I hear, the majority of us voted "No". But I heard that ORD and IAH was overwhelmingly a "Yes" vote. Some of the bigger line stations was a "Yes" vote as well. I didn't think that the union will break it down, but someone like Tim would know the true numbers.

 
Why not? They used to break it down. You should demand it. You're a member- you're entitled to see it
 
 

[/QUOTE]

 

[737823]

That comparison is not okay.
 
I am against any CBA that proves regressive. 
 
I am against anything that fosters voter apathy (in any election).
 
I am against equating organized labor with suicide bombers.

You are so caught up in the trees that you are missing the forest. I did not equate the IAM/organized labor/700UW/"labor leaders" to Hamas or any other a terrorist organization, I simply stated that his justification is along the same lines of those that seem to believe the actions of Hamas are forgivable simply because they were supposedly elected under a democratic process. YOU are the one taking this out of context, not me. Give it up, move on.

Josh

 

[T5towbar]

 

For some reason, I haven't been able to post.

 
 
Nobody has; the board's been down.
 
 
 
 
 
I don't have the breakdown in stations, but my station had a pretty decent turnout (for a station where it notorious for not voting for anything), mainly on the ramp side. From what I hear, the majority of us voted "No". But I heard that ORD and IAH was overwhelmingly a "Yes" vote. Some of the bigger line stations was a "Yes" vote as well. I didn't think that the union will break it down, but someone like Tim would know the true numbers.

 
Why not? They used to break it down. You should demand it. You're a member- you're entitled to see it
 
 

[/QUOTE] 


 
We want to see the numbers. But I think that Tim (and others) posted some pretty accurate numbers on FB. ORD and IAH was mostly "Yes". EWR and DEN were mostly "No". I'm not sure about CLE; SFO; IAD; or LAX. Or the other line stations like BOS; JFK; or the other larger stations. It will get out eventually.
 
BTW: I heard the strike ballot was an overwhelmingly "YES".

 

[WorldTraveler]

show us a CBA in the airline industry over the past 10 years that has moved the ball forward and remained that way.....

airline mgmt. has figured out how to decimate represented labor all the while those same people who thought they had a voice choose the mechanism that mgmt. will use to end their jobs and cut their pay.

 

[700UW]

WN.
 
Highest paid in the industry, highest percentage of unionized workers and most consistent and profitable airline.

 

[WorldTraveler]

thank you.


and yet you had absolutely nothing to do it....

what WN accomplished was because they were running a great business.. .just as DL is doing.

CBAs have nothing to do with it.

Good business does.

 

[Kev3188]

Yep, and good business also means good employee relations, which means happy customers, which means more $$$, etc.  Each build on the other continuously. Kelleher knew that, and executed his business strategy accordingly.
 
Shame that other business leaders (in many industries) fail to grasp that.

 

[Tim Nelson]

thank you.


and yet you had absolutely nothing to do it....

what WN accomplished was because they were running a great business.. .just as DL is doing.

CBAs have nothing to do with it.

Good business does.

I wouldnt be surprised if labor lays a giant goose egg at southwest as well.

 

[jet job]

Nelson no surprise that you lost another one. The new cba offers more protection than you can comprehend. What you and your chirper Eulo fail to see the industry is moving into the 21st century. That means more automation at the airports. Without the protection that would mean less CSR's. Your rage against the machine would be laughable if it wasn't so misplaced. You should be focusing on Pilots and what they have allowed to happen. Their shortsighted fly for the big buck attitude has allowed the company to utilize more and more RJ express carriers which in turn jeopardizes every other work group on the property. You and Eulo are truly shortsighted if not blinded by your quest to force a showdown.

 

[saywhat]

Nelson no surprise that you lost another one. The new cba offers more protection than you can comprehend. What you and your chirper Eulo fail to see the industry is moving into the 21st century. That means more automation at the airports. Without the protection that would mean less CSR's. Your rage against the machine would be laughable if it wasn't so misplaced. You should be focusing on Pilots and what they have allowed to happen. Their shortsighted fly for the big buck attitude has allowed the company to utilize more and more RJ express carriers which in turn jeopardizes every other work group on the property. You and Eulo are truly shortsighted if not blinded by your quest to force a showdown.
 
Agree with statement about the pilots, they agree to let work go to express and that causes trickle down to the rest of the workers. Flight attendants don't work express, maintenance doesn't work it and if the city you work in goes all express how do you think a Union is going to keep that work for you upstairs or down stairs. That is totally up to the Company you work for at that point. I think the leaders of all the other Unions on the property should tell the pilots to consider what their actions do for the rest of us.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yep, and good business also means good employee relations, which means happy customers, which means more $$$, etc.  Each build on the other continuously. Kelleher knew that, and executed his business strategy accordingly.
 
Shame that other business leaders (in many industries) fail to grasp that.

and to your great consternation, DL and B6 achieve the same thing but do it largely without unions.

B6, DL, and WN are well run financially, in the eyes of their customers, and in the eyes of industry analysts.


 None of those 3 could do what they have done with large groups of ticked off employees.
 

I wouldnt be surprised if labor lays a giant goose egg at southwest as well.

entirely possible but WN is generating the cash necessary to keep labor well-paid relative to WN's peers. WN can't rest on its laurels forever but it does have an enormous amount of labor goodwill saved up that it can tap into.

 

[john john]

The bottom line is the UA membership approved it,

Here we go again now we have to hear this for the next 5+ years