Why Tim Nelson is Dangerous to IAM-represented employees at United Airlines

[Socplat13]

The AA TWU ramp CBA explicitly lists 17 protected stations assuming seven daily mainline flights until amendable date in 2016

Dependent on flight activity. Wouldn't feel to comfortable with that language, especially in a merger scenario. UA's TA protects the work of 20,000 outright, including the vast amount of UAX work, and also has seniority based protections that disallow layoff due to outsourcing with seniority date of 4/1/2006. 67% of UA's flight schedule is UAX. Ask the lowly paid Eagle workers which contract they'd rather work under.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim wants you to believe that UA workers have location protection and the announced agreement somehow goes backwards. That's untrue. UA workers do not have location protection, and neither do any airline workers. The 4/1/2006 date protects over 25,000 from lay-off due to outsourcing. Largest group of workers to ever have that protection, maybe in any industry.

Nelson wants to reinvent history, along with his disciples of misinformation, and have people believe that airline workers were always guaranteed a job in a certain city. Nothing could be further than the truth. All of a sudden, protecting 96% of IAM workers at UA from lay-off due to outsourcing is somehow a failure. The average American worker only dreams of this type of protection.

Again, Tim, which airline contract stipulates that a worker MUST be kept in a location? None.

Kev, you seem intelligent, ALL workers have protections in this CBA. It's called the property right of seniority which says you must have a job if someone is junior to you. Why aren't all covered? That's negotiations, the ability to do the best possible and have both sides leave not getting everything they want. It's called reality. Why isn't it sunny and 70 everyday? Why isn't the starting base wage $35.00 per hour?

Ok, I get the fact that you think I'm a clown. Again, all of your scam scandals are hit wired and time bombed. I have asked you repeatedly about 1-8 and it's 'drop dead' protections. Your protections are at DOS but at the end of the contract, if the company doesn't sing kumbuya, how can you say you will have more than 10,000 union members left unless the company loves union members and doesn't take advantage of all of the dopey things you guys gave them from the UA ramp contract.

Not sure what you are talking about when you say station protection but you seem to have a very hard time saying the word scope. Presently, 29 stations in the UA ramp contract have scope that gives them the work even if only one mainline flies in there. At DOS, you won't have any scope in over 90% of your ramp stations for either express or MAINLINE. True, you have grandfather rights at 23 of the stations until they hit the detonation date but unless folks don't plan on dying or retiring over the next 3 years, they will have nothing beyond that date. Hell, you just don't listen. Why don't you talk about the detonation dates or mention scope? And we know I'm an #### already so can you get beyond the personal attacks and rhetoric?

And I also fail to see how this conversation has changed since TA1? Why are we talking about it since YOUR membership already voted 80% against TA1? If TA2 gets voted in, then it will only be because of a 'no confidence vote' for you.

The members will decide but imo this conversation is exhausted. I point out the detonation dates and myths and you resort to name calling and using absolute language with no recognition of all the 'wire trips' you set in the contract.

yaaawwwwnnnnnnn

 

[Tim Nelson]

Dependent on flight activity. Wouldn't feel to comfortable with that language, especially in a merger scenario. UA's TA protects the work of 20,000 outright, including the vast amount of UAX work, and also has seniority based protections that disallow layoff due to outsourcing with seniority date of 4/1/2006. 67% of UA's flight schedule is UAX. Ask the lowly paid Eagle workers which contract they'd rather work under.

Don't compromise mainline scope for express 'drop dead' protections that blow up in 3 years. You will NOT have express anywhere in a few years if management takes advantage of what you gave it. And, any one of the 90% of your stations can increase flight activity and become a non union hub like CLE since you dopes didn't provide ANY LANGUAGE WHATSOEVER to protect the company from doing this. Gosh I hope there isn't another merger with Alaska or some other airline. One thing we know for sure, CLE, will be increased after it is vended out and made a non union hub. Of course, all those from CLE will have the opportunity to say "Thanks but no thanks to go to EWR" since you coughed up scope. Sheesh!

 

[737823]

Dependent on flight activity. Wouldn't feel to comfortable with that language, especially in a merger scenario. UA's TA protects the work of 20,000 outright, including the vast amount of UAX work, and also has seniority based protections that disallow layoff due to outsourcing with seniority date of 4/1/2006. 67% of UA's flight schedule is UAX. Ask the lowly paid Eagle workers which contract they'd rather work under.

Weak. I'll post a link to the CBA and specific article, but you challenged that no CBA guarantees certain locations, I refuted that and you don't like it. And all the currently staffed AA stations are well above seven m/l departures it is unlikely that will change drastically anytime soon. I agree with more E75s coming online certain stations may be engendered but again outside the hubs, the T/A you keep boasting about guarantees nothing. UA could mix and match express in certain markets and as the language is written the members covered under the agreement would have no case against the company's actions were this to occur.

Josh

 

[DFWFSC]

The AA TWU ramp CBA explicitly lists 17 protected stations assuming seven daily mainline flights until amendable date in 2016

Josh

True, however, what exactly does 7 daily flights mean? They can run 7 daily mon-fri then only 4 or 5 on sat-sun. The language is weak and the company will manipulate it any way they can.

 

[mike33]

True, however, what exactly does 7 daily flights mean? They can run 7 daily mon-fri then only 4 or 5 on sat-sun. The language is weak and the company will manipulate it any way they can.

Tow...it's calculated on the yearly avg to daily. It,s not actual daily

 

[737823]

True, however, what exactly does 7 daily flights mean? They can run 7 daily mon-fri then only 4 or 5 on sat-sun. The language is weak and the company will manipulate it any way they can.

We all agree the TWU ATD are pretty pathetic negotiators but even they have superior SCOPE with fewer holes than the IAM 141.

Directly from the CBA Article 1C:

© The Company will continue to assign American Airlines TWU represented
employees in classifications designated by the Company to all stations wherein such
TWU represented employees are assigned currently with 5475 and above annual
departures and will staff new cities (those not currently staffed by the TWU) at or above
7300 annual departures. The Company will also re-staff former TWU staffed cities that
have been de-staffed once those cities reach 7300 and above annual departures.ARTICLE 1 - RECOGNITION AND SCOPE
2
Annual departure threshold for initial determination of stations to be
impacted will be based on the most current January 2013 look back report
provided to the TWU as obligated under the current Article 1© language.
Thereafter, the determination of the scheduled departures will be made each January 1
and July 1 and will consider the prior twelve (12) month period.
It is further agreed that as other stations are established during the term of
this Agreement, the Union will be notified prior to the opening and conferences will be
held between the parties regarding the staffing of these stations. The Company retains
the right to staff such stations at its discretion.

This will confirm our understanding reached during the negotiations leading up
to the agreement signed on DOS.
During these negotiations, we agreed that the following seventeen (17) stations
will continue to be staffed with TWU represented employees following the
implementation of Article 1©. Those stations will remain staffed, with TWU
represented Fleet Service employees, so long as the annual departures are at or
above 2555 from the effective date of this agreement up to the day prior to the
amendable date.
ATL JFK MIA STL
AUS LAS ORD TPA
BOS LAX SAT
DCA LGA SFO
DFW MCO SJU
Beyond the amendable date, Article 1© will apply.

2555 annual departures/365 days=7 daily flights (for the 17 stations to remain staffed)
5475 annual departures/365 days=15 daily flights (below this threshold to be contacted out)
7300 annual departures/365 days=20 daily flights (threshold for station to be restaffed)

Unlikely any of the above 17 will go below seven daily mainline flights. It could happen but it would be a significant pull down. Longer term probably stations like AUS, ATL, SAT, and STL are at risk. Unlikely AA would bring substantial Eagle flying to BOS or MCO

Josh

 

[Tim Nelson]

We all agree the TWU ATD are pretty pathetic negotiators but even they have superior SCOPE with fewer holes than the IAM 141.

Directly from the CBA Article 1C:




2555 annual departures/365 days=7 daily flights (for the 17 stations to remain staffed)
5475 annual departures/365 days=15 daily flights (below this threshold to be contacted out)
7300 annual departures/365 days=20 daily flights (threshold for station to be restaffed)

Unlikely any of the above 17 will go below seven daily mainline flights. It could happen but it would be a significant pull down. Longer term probably stations like AUS, ATL, SAT, and STL are at risk. Unlikely AA would bring substantial Eagle flying to BOS or MCO

Josh

The language above needs to be better but it serves a 'dual purpose' by also preventing AMR from increasing flight activity without being forced to being a union station. Unfortunately, the IAM141 agreed to support management at United and have no restrictions, which is bizarre. Hell, BOS can go up to 100 flights but can still be Sh*^ Canned and contracted out. One thing we have learned about airline managements is that they always want to reduce union jobs. CLE will be their gold mine as they vend that hub out.

 

[jet job]

Wrong again Nelson. Blah, blah blah. When ever numbers are used the company can manage right to the number and make an adjustment. The TA is the strongest model to date in the industry. UAX is not protected unless this ratifies. You know this and you still keep saying otherwise. WHY?

 

[737823]

The language above needs to be better but it serves a 'dual purpose' by also preventing AMR from increasing flight activity without being forced to being a union station. Unfortunately, the IAM141 agreed to support management at United and have no restrictions, which is bizarre. Hell, BOS can go up to 100 flights but can still be Sh*^ Canned and contracted out. One thing we have learned about airline managements is that they always want to reduce union jobs. CLE will be their gold mine as they vend that hub out.

Agreed and that is why I have been saying all along the whole approach to collective bargaining (for you guys sake) needs to be changed to protect Express flying. Yes AA/DL/UA/OALs have considerable mainline orders and will always have mainline flying but the new generation of RJs have the potential to fly considerably longer routes and squeeze many markets. As Bob Owens has posted before (AA AMT), there comes a point when you give so much in concessions that it is no longer worthwhile saving the jobs. If UA is going to do this unlimited part time, unlimited split shift nonsense and expect people to move from their home station to one of the seven hubs is it really worthwhile? People like 700 and socplat13 cover themselves up in the name of solidarity and charge that anyone who disagrees is selling out their brothers and sisters. But again if by 2018 only seven stations are protected UA will be free to mix and match Express flying and possibly whittle down the seven stations to four, five or even fewer.

Josh

 

[Tim Nelson]

Wrong again Nelson. Blah, blah blah. When ever numbers are used the company can manage right to the number and make an adjustment. The TA is the strongest model to date in the industry. UAX is not protected unless this ratifies. You know this and you still keep saying otherwise. WHY?

company gets you to give up mainline scope for 23 ramp stations at dos. In return they give express in some stations for 3 years. At the end of the ta, you will not have any rights to one express job in a hub or anywhere else plus you will not have any scope for mainline in those 23 stations even if the company tosses in 100 mainline into jfk. This ta is a job killing contract no doubt.

 

[john john]

The fact is, just based on the highlights, this would be the best CBA for Fleet, Customer Service, Stores and Res in the industry.

This has to be the most outrages statement every in the union environment. This statement alone is the truth or consequences of trying to control the release information that is harming

 

[john john]

Get the facts brother.

?

 

[jet job]

Nelson is just wrong in his assumptions and comprehension of job security. United is going to have 10 fleet service workers at every gate according to Nelson. What he forgets to tell everyone "under the current contract for ramp servicemen only have the right to work mainline" that means when the bigger rj's come on line next April our jobs are in jeopardy.

 

[jet job]

company gets you to give up mainline scope for 23 ramp stations at dos. In return they give express in some stations for 3 years. At the end of the ta, you will not have any rights to one express job in a hub or anywhere else plus you will not have any scope for mainline in those 23 stations even if the company tosses in 100 mainline into jfk. This ta is a job killing contract no doubt.

company gets you to give up mainline scope for 23 ramp stations at dos. In return they give express in some stations for 3 years. At the end of the ta, you will not have any rights to one express job in a hub or anywhere else plus you will not have any scope for mainline in those 23 stations even if the company tosses in 100 mainline into jfk. This ta is a job killing contract no doubt.

Read it again nelson