Whats He Asking For?

[Bob Owens]

Bob;

You are right Bob, the 1989 contract proved to me that being in a Union was the right thing to do. So I made a mistake 20 years ago, whats your excuse?

My excuse for what? I wasnt in management.

OK Bob, I was elected by a majority of those who cast ballots. Happy?

Well you still dont have it right Pete. You got more votes than any other candidate but not the majority of the votes cast.

I NEVER revieved ot for "going to the international"

Who said you did? Take a deep breath and reread what is written. I said that "going to the International would not be worth it".

Any UB time that I recieved was for time lost at work. 8 hours period. Look it up in the financial report.

Massi.

I can recall when you were treasurer you would rack up your UB while at work and then go off to Ireland for 3 weeks and call youself on UB. Was there a Local Office in Dublin that I missed? You are a most disingenuous fact twister.

Thats a lie. Pete you really need to calm down. Are you sure you want to go this route?

This is going back quite a few years ago but I'll fill you in as best as I can remember. As far as my vacation what happened was Gless called an emergency meeting while I was on vacation because they reached a TA. My family went to Ireland without me and I stayed home to attend the Emergency meeting. So even though I was listed as being on vacation by the company I was instead doing union work. After everything was over I went to Ireland and extended my vacation for the days I lost. It may have been a few days but not three weeks. Would you have simply given up vacation days to do UB?

I didnt abuse UB or Lost time, unlike you who took UB on Christmas. Should we also bring up what Massi said you were doing? The fact is that the overwhelming majority of the lost time that I put in for was to do membership meetings and Eboard meetings. You may not recall it but Frank and I lost a lot of money off our retro checks because of all the lost time we had doing meetings. Frank would do JFK, EWR and PHL and I was doing BDL, BOS and SJU.

 

[Pete Corabi VP562]

Now I really know that you are twisted. Quoting the deceased (Massi), now thers a sure fire way to make sure it cant come back to haunt you! No pun intended!

Yes Bob, I did take ONE UB day on Christmas day, 2000. Since you brought it up, it was the one year anniversary of my fathers death. And I wanted to be home. So what? You were the treasurer and knew what it was for. If you thought I was taking something that wasnt right, you should have said something.

As far as your trips to Ireland, I am not the only one who remembers it that way. If you cant take it, you should not have brought up the UB issues. Other board members used to laugh at how you could justify "banking you UB time". Perhaps everyone else is wrong and you are right. Anything is possible.

Anyway, this thread is old and long. We will never settle our differences, I do not want you to win the election, but if you do, I will not interfere with you. Good Luck.

Pete

 

[Bob Owens]

I believe that only one person ran against you, so what?

Actually it was two, Herby Kreuz and Pete Trapani.

Yeah, I could vote at the joint meeting. But you also had "officers" meetings from time to time. Point is, you NEVER spoke up about any of the changes that you hold so dearly now.

Like I said it wasnt an issue because information was put out.

I tried to be positive when I started writting this post, and I have always given you credit for what you have done, but your negative comments against my accomplishments speak volumes of your insecurity.

Really. I seem to recall you recently saying I didnt do anything.

Why dont you want others to know about what this local has done? Are you afraid that it will somhow diminish your position?

Please tell us. Tell us how JLT and PLI have given us such leverage at the bargaining table that the company offered us two bonuses in exchange for more concessions.

I have no problem with you telling everyone what the local has done. I didnt say you did a bad job at getting people their jobs back, I just said they werent victories because the members werent made whole. The process is flawed. Back in 1998 the company was threatening to discipline several workers who were filmed sleeping, the arbitration process did not prevent it, the guys did. When the company does something unfair dont go around telling the guys to lay low in the hopes that management will be mercifull, let them do what they want. If the company wants to work to rule let the guys do it.

Sure handling grievances is important but its not enough the Local needs to reach out to the members, not just sit back and see who comes to them.


Being administrators is not enough, we need leadership. Leadership is not defined as following the directives of the Internatioanl without question. The last union meeting I went to, months past the amendable date, there was 4 people there. Doesnt that say anything to you? This local isnt reaching the membership. This local wont try new things. It keeps information under wraps. No, the members dont care to know when Iuliano wipes his butt but they do want to know if the company wants to close 20 stations and put mechanic helpers on the line. If the company drags out Bulletin Boards for three weeks they should hear about it. How does keeping the members out of the process and in the dark help us get better contracts? Its unreasonable to expect them to trust the Local and react when told to when the Local doesnt give them information. Placing an X next to an article indicating that there is a TA on that article tells us nothing.

When is the last time this local put out a newsletter? They have everyones E-mail address, how hard would it be for the Local to send out at least one message a month? I get scores of E-mails from Local 567.

Ive spoken to John many times. He isnt a good listener. I tried to bring up the online local, he wanted no part of it. I brought it up to him with the best of intentions, shortly after he got into office. I didnt want credit for it, I wanted a better more accessable Local. The idea came to me when Nick was in office but I knew that he wouldnt want any part of it. When John got in I was more optimistic. I figured he may want to try something new since we all know that what we have isnt working. Four members at a meeting is proof of that. Instead John reacted like a typical International official-blame the membership. Pete, we all have to put in more than 40 to get by. Whats wrong with bringing the local right into the homes of the members? You accuse me of trying to take control with a minority when in fact I want to give more control to the entire membership. I want to let them make motions, discuss motions and even vote on motions from home, at their convienence. I believe that we would have much more participation. Instead of twenty votes determining a motion that affects 800 people you may see 500 or more vote.

I'm dissapointed with John and this E-board, not for personal reasons but because they wasted two years in pointless prorgams that did nothing for us when that two years of relative quiet could have been used to do so much more.

Look Pete, you say that you take action to provide solutions. What do you plan to do about the fact that participation is at an all time low? Blaming the members for not coming to union meetings will not fix the problem or increase participation. This problem has only gotten worse. I say do it online. Bring the meetings to the members. John says "Why didnt you do this when you were in office?' Well computers were still new to me then. The Union computer at the hall was the first compter I ever really spent much time on. Before that I only ever had WEB-TV. I've learned a lot since then and most people use computers nowadays, why shouldnt the local?

What are some of the challenges facing airline Locals?

Shifts
Days off
Location

The membership is split up by shift, days off and location. Computers can bring the entire membership to a single palce and allow them to take part in a single process. Its time for unionism to take advantage of new technology to overcome what have been eternal obsticles to building unity and distributing information.

If John had been open to this two years ago it would be in place today.

I bet you made more! P.S. include you "other" income.

Total household income? How much you want to bet?

 

[TWU informer]

Yes Bob, I did take ONE UB day on Christmas day, 2000. Since you brought it up, it was the one year anniversary of my fathers death. And I wanted to be home. So what? You were the treasurer and knew what it was for. If you thought I was taking something that wasnt right, you should have said something.

Wow does every member of your Local get a day off paid by the union on the anniversary of the parents death? I know I didn't get one for Mom or Dad. And I agree if Bob was Treasurer at the time, then you were both in the wrong on this one and probably are guilty of violating the law.

As far as your trips to Ireland, I am not the only one who remembers it that way. If you cant take it, you should not have brought up the UB issues. Other board members used to laugh at how you could justify "banking you UB time". Perhaps everyone else is wrong and you are right. Anything is possible.

I agree with you on this one Pete, if Bob was paid UB to go on vacation that is wrong and once again probably a violation of law.

Anyway, this thread is old and long. We will never settle our differences, I do not want you to win the election, but if you do, I will not interfere with you. Good Luck.

Pete

This is how most newbies on the board run and hide once they are unable to answer simple questions about the TWU and the need for replacement.

I really didn't understand this was to be a debate amongst Local Union Officer hopefuls, it appeared to me it started by Bob asking about and being a critic of a letter written by Iuliano. I did not know Bob was also a candidate for office when I entered the Fray. My apologies if I jumped in unwelcomed. The content of the letter spooled my interest and demonstrated lack of real working knowledge of the TWU and then Pete showed up to defend that lack of knowledge.

Pete, this thread has only convinced me that you are not really an advocate for changing the TWU at all, but instead a bus rider for compensation on the same old ride. I learned this from the short thread that you have already escaped and given up on...You will not initiate or win a battle the International Union and instead would be a patsy for appointment when the chips are all on the table. On other hand, I know that Bob will not cave. Your only posted accomplishments are related to three termination arbitration cases. Pete, winning a termination simply proves that either management is inept and failed to follow proper procedures, or managment simply dealt and unjust punishment. Proving AA Management ignorant is not proof of a champion for union cause. Plain and Simple, proving AA Management to be worthless is probably the most simple task anyone from the floor can do these days, but it doesnt put food on the table and doesnt really help bolster the middle class. Therefore, your claim to fame is as best weakass politics and nothing more.

I still have a few previous post that need responses from you, but you seem to be one of those guys that since I cannot vote for or against you, I wont be getting the time of day from you. Which really proves even more what you are really about and where your direction leads us as a group.

 

[Pete Corabi VP562]

Wow does every member of your Local get a day off paid by the union on the anniversary of the parents death? I know I didn't get one for Mom or Dad. And I agree if Bob was Treasurer at the time, then you were both in the wrong on this one and probably are guilty of violating the law.



I agree with you on this one Pete, if Bob was paid UB to go on vacation that is wrong and once again probably a violation of law.



This is how most newbies on the board run and hide once they are unable to answer simple questions about the TWU and the need for replacement.

I really didn't understand this was to be a debate amongst Local Union Officer hopefuls, it appeared to me it started by Bob asking about and being a critic of a letter written by Iuliano. I did not know Bob was also a candidate for office when I entered the Fray. My apologies if I jumped in unwelcomed. The content of the letter spooled my interest and demonstrated lack of real working knowledge of the TWU and then Pete showed up to defend that lack of knowledge.

Pete, this thread has only convinced me that you are not really an advocate for changing the TWU at all, but instead a bus rider for compensation on the same old ride. I learned this from the short thread that you have already escaped and given up on...You will not initiate or win a battle the International Union and instead would be a patsy for appointment when the chips are all on the table. On other hand, I know that Bob will not cave. Your only posted accomplishments are related to three termination arbitration cases. Pete, winning a termination simply proves that either management is inept and failed to follow proper procedures, or managment simply dealt and unjust punishment. Proving AA Management ignorant is not proof of a champion for union cause. Plain and Simple, proving AA Management to be worthless is probably the most simple task anyone from the floor can do these days, but it doesnt put food on the table and doesnt really help bolster the middle class. Therefore, your claim to fame is as best weakass politics and nothing more.

I still have a few previous post that need responses from you, but you seem to be one of those guys that since I cannot vote for or against you, I wont be getting the time of day from you. Which really proves even more what you are really about and where your direction leads us as a group.

Infomer;

You claim to want open dialogue and transparency, yet you hide behind banner. You are quick to criticize the International reps that you claim do the same things to you.

You are mistaken if you think that I am going to "run and hide". the only one hiding here is you. You know my name, I dont know yours. You need to grow a pair. You are typical of the problems at AA and the TWU. I bet that you were NEVER involved in anything with the Union, to even TRY to change anything. My advice to you is stop riding on others coat tails and get ourself out there if you are so unhappy. No one can ever say that I did not try to do my very best to make things better for those I represent.

I have never stated that the TWU was perfect, but they are not all evil. The accomplishments that I posted are the highlights of what I have done. You seem to think that if I dont agree with you on all points, that I am looking for some international appointment. I made it quite clear that is not the case.

Think what you want, but as long as you choose to remain anonymous you are part of the problem, not the solution. Anyway the choice to anwer a post is my choice. You have shown me that you are only interested in scoring points for wit and insults, not facts.
So no matter what I say to you, it is probably a waste of time. Good Day.

 

[iluvaa]

Infomer;

You claim to want open dialogue and transparency, yet you hide behind banner. You are quick to criticize the International reps that you claim do the same things to you.

You are mistaken if you think that I am going to "run and hide". the only one hiding here is you. You know my name, I dont know yours. You need to grow a pair. You are typical of the problems at AA and the TWU. I bet that you were NEVER involved in anything with the Union, to even TRY to change anything. My advice to you is stop riding on others coat tails and get ourself out there if you are so unhappy. No one can ever say that I did not try to do my very best to make things better for those I represent.

I have never stated that the TWU was perfect, but they are not all evil. The accomplishments that I posted are the highlights of what I have done. You seem to think that if I dont agree with you on all points, that I am looking for some international appointment. I made it quite clear that is not the case.

Think what you want, but as long as you choose to remain anonymous you are part of the problem, not the solution. Anyway the choice to anwer a post is my choice. You have shown me that you are only interested in scoring points for wit and insults, not facts.
So no matter what I say to you, it is probably a waste of time. Good Day.

everyone on here knows who he is, pm me i will tell u

 

[TWU informer]

Why does who I am matter?

I am not the one runnig for office.

Or do you want to try and dig some dirt on me too, so you can deflect attention away from your inability to give straight forward answers to legitimate questions.

One more time Pete,

Detail your plans to:

Reform the TWU International and Local 562 to stop the appointed dictatorships and lack of membership control to obtain simple information like what our negotiators have proposed to AA in negotiations.

What is your plan to unite overhaul and line to stop the divide and conquere tatics of Jim Little and AA Management? How many firends to you even have in overhaul that could be contacted to assist in your plan?

Given another failed attempt to change the TWU, how far would you be willing to go to stop the destruction of the profession?

 

[TWU informer]

Maybe an easier one question simpleton attempt will get an answer...

Pete, are you for or against the "working together" process started by Dennis Burchette?

 

[The Goose]

Infomer;

You claim to want open dialogue and transparency, yet you hide behind banner. You are quick to criticize the International reps that you claim do the same things to you.

You are mistaken if you think that I am going to "run and hide". the only one hiding here is you. You know my name, I dont know yours. You need to grow a pair. You are typical of the problems at AA and the TWU. I bet that you were NEVER involved in anything with the Union, to even TRY to change anything. My advice to you is stop riding on others coat tails and get ourself out there if you are so unhappy. No one can ever say that I did not try to do my very best to make things better for those I represent.

I have never stated that the TWU was perfect, but they are not all evil. The accomplishments that I posted are the highlights of what I have done. You seem to think that if I dont agree with you on all points, that I am looking for some international appointment. I made it quite clear that is not the case.

Think what you want, but as long as you choose to remain anonymous you are part of the problem, not the solution. Anyway the choice to anwer a post is my choice. You have shown me that you are only interested in scoring points for wit and insults, not facts.
So no matter what I say to you, it is probably a waste of time. Good Day.

The informer has probably done more attempting to change a screwed up union than you have even thought of. He's disgusted and rightfully so, exactly as I have become and quite a few others. We do not care to have ex-aa management running our representation, nor do we care to have professional liars in the International in any capacity. We can have that in politicians but they can be voted out of office. Can our International be voted out? No, and therefore are totally unaccountable to the TWU membership. Is that what you stand for?

You don't need to know a person's identity to determine if they make sense or not; rather, you're more interested in making a complaint to the sorry-ass International - that's quite obvious.

Until you've been removed from a local union office for putting the membership first before the International or removed from a local election ballot because the International knows that you stand for exactly what would get them booted, you have no right to complain.

 

[High Speed Steel]

OK Informant;

Ill bite. I guess that transparency and open conversation dont mean too much to you, or you would tell me who you are. So in the absence of knowing, I will address you as Mr. Management.

As you are probably aware, the is no such article addressing recall of Officers. But there are Locals that do have recall procedures in there by-laws. I'll let you do the research on that. As I stated before, quite clearly, If my members file a motion and it passes, I will abide by it.

Now, here is my Bio

6/9/86 - Junior Mechanic
7/87 - M E Training Instructor (management position)
9/89 - Left managment ( I did not like it) Re-Hired as an AMT
7/92 - to Present - Tech Crew Chief JFK - And yes, I like what I do.

11/99 - Elected Section Chairman JFK Local 562. I never liked how the AMT's were treated with
501, so I figured it is better to get involved and try to make a difference, rather than BS
about it all day long.
9/2002 - Elected E-Board Local 562
9/2003 or thereabout - Elected Treasurer of Local 562, after Owens was removed from office.
11/2005 - Elected Vice-President of Local 562

As you can see, I was elected by a majority of the members in my local. I am very proud to serve them and will continue to do so for as long as they want me too.

As far as the convention minutes go, I did not know that I was required to do anything for you. As stated before, I believe that Owens account is accurate. I also have no aspirations of going to the TWU International. I like working on airplanes. Please tell me where you have lost your freedom, democracy or worker justice? I dont think you lost anything. Look hard, it is right in front of you. Some people are good at finding fault and placing blame. Others are better at working through problems and finding solutions. Where do you stand, Mr. Management?

The informer has probably done more attempting to change a screwed up union than you have even thought of. He's disgusted and rightfully so, exactly as I have become and quite a few others. We do not care to have ex-aa management running our representation, nor do we care to have professional liars in the International in any capacity. We can have that in politicians but they can be voted out of office. Can our International be voted out? No, and therefore are totally unaccountable to the TWU membership. Is that what you stand for?

You don't need to know a person's identity to determine if they make sense or not; rather, you're more interested in making a complaint to the sorry-ass International - that's quite obvious.

Until you've been removed from a local union office for putting the membership first before the International or removed from a local election ballot because the International knows that you stand for exactly what would get them booted, you have no right to complain.

Some people are good at finding fault and placing blame. Others are better at working through problems and finding solutions. Where do you stand, Mr. Management?


Goose, You really give informer "aka Mr. Management" more credit than is due. Brother Corabi posted the above question to informer and I thought he needed the answer so it is identifiable.

I have read through some of the exchanges between Brother Corabi and Brother Owens and you can see that Brother Corabi according to Brother Owens is in a thankless job. He noted his accomplishments to Brother Owens and it was only discredited as a draw. Why would a former officer discredit what was attained through the accomplishments of an officer of the TWU?

I think this shows that personal agenda is alive and well within someones campaign

 

[TWU informer]

Some people are good at finding fault and placing blame. Others are better at working through problems and finding solutions. Where do you stand, Mr. Management?


Goose, You really give informer "aka Mr. Management" more credit than is due. Brother Corabi posted the above question to informer and I thought he needed the answer so it is identifiable.

Which particular problem facing the profession would you like to know where I stand?

There are so many issues, if I launched into a diatribe about them all, I would exhaust available bandwidth. The question was posed in a manner the equates to something along the lines of "How deep is a hole?" or "How hot is fire?".

So be more specific if you want an "indentifiable" answer. In other words indentify the subject if you want an indentifiable response. On some issues, I can find fault and blame and prove attempted change has failed, on others I can do both faind fault and blame and offer solutions.

To be fair, you will be asked where you stand on a subject related to our demise for each one you submit and I answer. It appears it will be me and you since your friend Pete appears to have went back under the management rock/desk.

 

[The Goose]

Goose, You really give informer "aka Mr. Management" more credit than is due. Brother Corabi posted the above question to informer and I thought he needed the answer so it is identifiable.

I understand why he's taken the attitude he has and agree that there is no accountablility at the International level in the TWU. I do not appreciate the International being in bed with the company and the membership not having the power to recall them. I don't blindly agree with everything the Informer has tried to do over the years - some of it was damned foolish.

By contrast, even though the TWU International is infested with officers who simply don't care about those who pay their salaries, I can't think of any other union or association that's any better. At some point, they've all begun acting as the corporations they pretend to protect the workers from and considering only their own survival.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob;
I am glad that you got through your rhetoric to talk about that motion.

The motion was made for the recall of officers. The recall process could be started if 25% of the membership called for the recall. At that point a vote for recall would take place.

I am sure that you will correct me if Im not 100%.

I opposed the motion as written because I do not think that a minority of members has the right to control the Local, because the officer in question would be unable to perform his duties even if 75% of the local voted for him in a general election only 25% could suspend him until a recall vote took place. I did not feel that the motion was fair the way it was written.
If a new motion were to be submitted with a 50% +1 requirement to start the recall, then I would have voted for it.

So in other words instead of blocking the motion because it was out of order or illegal you feel its your perrogative as an E-board member to block a motion based upon your personal preferences. That contradicts what you have said earlier as far as the members being the ultimate authority. This is not the only example of you trying to block a legal motion from going to a membership vote based upon your opinion of it. You tried to do the same thing with the round robin motion that came out of JFK back when you were section chairman. You didnt want to allow it to come to a vote despite the fact that it was a perfectly legal proceedure that other workgroups in the TWU/AA system used because YOU didnt agree with it. I successfully argued that despite our (the E-board)personal feelings, since we were all relatively senior workers, the motion was legal and the members must be given the opportunity to vote on it.

Personally I agree that a 25% threshold is too low. Regardless of my opinion it should have been up to the membership to decide. If the members decided that 25% should be enough to call for a vote that required 2/3rds for ratification then so be it. The board has the opportunity to make their feelings known during debate.


That said thats not what the person who made the motion was told was the reason for rejection, he would have altered it to 50%+1 if that was the issue, I spoke to him about it. He was told that the board determined recall was a violation of the LMRDA and I believe the TWU Constitution. Both are false.

So what is it Pete, is the membership the "ultimate authority" or should the E-board have the right to screen motions based upon their personal preferences of what they "like" or dont like ?

You claim that you would support Recall if it was 50%+ 1, meaning that the motion was legal, you just didnt like some of the stipulations of the motion but as an E-board member your duty was to determine whether or not the motion was legal, not whether or not you as an individual would vote for it as written. If you felt it was legal but you didnt like the 25% threshold you should have voted to allow it to be voted on then gone to a meeting and voted against it or made an amendment to the motion.

Lets not forget that Local 562 was formed because the members were allowed to vote for it. The E-board of Local 501 was against letting us vote to split, it was unanimous. Legally, their decision to not allow us to vote to leave was more sound than yours not to allow recall and round robin to come to a vote. However as you know we were permitted to vote and the E-board was permitted to campaign against passage of the motion. As a member did you feel that the E-board had the right to not allow us to vote on motions or do you only feel that way now that you are an E-board member?

 

[Bob Owens]

Wow does every member of your Local get a day off paid by the union on the anniversary of the parents death? I know I didn't get one for Mom or Dad. And I agree if Bob was Treasurer at the time, then you were both in the wrong on this one and probably are guilty of violating the law.

No they do not.
Pete as Section Chairman was granted super seniority as far as shift bidding so that gave him weekends off. The only other board member to have off on the weekends off was the President. Meetings were held during the week and would inevitably be held on somebody's day off . Understandably nobody wanted to work on their day off so if the meeting was held on your day off you would take a different day off from work. It was basically an internal CS. However it was expected that the comp day should be used under the same guidelines that a CS would be granted to do union business.

I agree with you on this one Pete, if Bob was paid UB to go on vacation that is wrong and once again probably a violation of law.

Thats not what happened. I already went over it. I can send you a cut and past of the hours section of the payroll stub of the three weeks in question if you send me an e-mail address.

 

[ibtproud]

I realize i am a outsider but i am following the discussion. It seems Pete is so full of himself using cowardly jabs. Pete if you were a officer at the time of the alleged violation why now post it, must be your in a doomed re-election. Bob holds his ground,gives open answers and keeps facts from spin.

Pete i take it your the president of the local because you find offence to Bobs complaints. As president you should have respected your membership & not required them to respect you! Respect is earned not given! I guess politics is the same at all the airlines!