What Do The Pilot's Gain,

[A320 Driver]

the ta is a big mess. it's so bad it should not go for a vote.

[post="187484"][/post]​

So who are you to decide this? Most of the pilots I talk to want to vote, one way or the other. Sitting on this TA will not make it go away. And by the way, who's kidding who thinking that this pilot group would vote to strike?

Never happen.

A320 Driver

 

[FWAAA]

I definately am no expert with bankruptcy laws or procedures. Could someone please tell me how it is legal and just for a judge to cut employee wages and benefits and force them to work because of management's ineptness. Not to mention all groups have contracts. How is this possible? Is there nothing at all that protects the employees of a company in bankruptcy? Why should the employees go to hell because of management's "sins"?

[post="187476"][/post]​

ALL contracts of a bankrupt company are subject to cancellation or modification, not just the labor agreements. People who loaned money to USAir are probably just as distraught. Their agreements are at risk of being re-written, even though the lenders would probably rather they be maintained without amendment.

What a lot of people don't realize is that labor agreements really only matter when the employer is doing well. When employers' financial health goes to hell (like at a bankrupt airline), there are no "magic cures" provided by labor unions or collective bargaining agreements. Your employer is still broke. And pointing fingers and assigning blame doesn't change the fact that your employer is broke.

Bankruptcy judges couldn't care less WHY the company is broke. The US Bankruptcy Code doesn't concern itself with why. The judge's task is to preside over a restructuring (successful emergence from Ch 11) or a liquidation under Ch 7. They really don't have time or a reason for analyzing WHY the debtor is broke.

The solution? Work for an employer that isn't broke. Go get a job at a profitable company instead of one that is a frequent Ch 11 debtor.

The company is in bankruptcy because it nearly ran out of unrestricted cash.

Since it entered bankruptcy, USAir has obtained permission to invade the ATSB's collateral for daily operating cash.

You mentioned being "forced to work." If the bankruptcy judge cuts your pay and benefits, no one will "force the employees to work because of management's ineptness."

If you don't like the new terms imposed by the judge, you are free to leave and pursue other opportunities.

 

[cavalier]

If you don't like the new terms imposed by the judge, you are free to leave and pursue other opportunities.

[post="187508"][/post]​

OR free to stay and bury it and say a few words afterward. This sir is what a LOT of employees are looking forward to, just because the judge says this or that doesn't mean work will be accomplished.....

People are people, don't forget that important factor in the equation

 

[EyeInTheSky]

ALL contracts of a bankrupt company are subject to cancellation or modification, not just the labor agreements. People who loaned money to USAir are probably just as distraught. Their agreements are at risk of being re-written, even though the lenders would probably rather they be maintained without amendment.

What a lot of people don't realize is that labor agreements really only matter when the employer is doing well. When employers' financial health goes to hell (like at a bankrupt airline), there are no "magic cures" provided by labor unions or collective bargaining agreements. Your employer is still broke. And pointing fingers and assigning blame doesn't change the fact that your employer is broke.

Bankruptcy judges couldn't care less WHY the company is broke. The US Bankruptcy Code doesn't concern itself with why. The judge's task is to preside over a restructuring (successful emergence from Ch 11) or a liquidation under Ch 7. They really don't have time or a reason for analyzing WHY the debtor is broke.

The solution? Work for an employer that isn't broke. Go get a job at a profitable company instead of one that is a frequent Ch 11 debtor.

The company is in bankruptcy because it nearly ran out of unrestricted cash.

Since it entered bankruptcy, USAir has obtained permission to invade the ATSB's collateral for daily operating cash.

You mentioned being "forced to work." If the bankruptcy judge cuts your pay and benefits, no one will "force the employees to work because of management's ineptness."

If you don't like the new terms imposed by the judge, you are free to leave and pursue other opportunities.

[post="187508"][/post]​

I thought this was America, not communist China. Management needs to be accountable for their mismanagement and employees need to stand up for the contract that management agreed to.

 

[FWAAA]

I thought this was America, not communist China. Management needs to be accountable for their mismanagement and employees need to stand up for the contract that management agreed to.

[post="187519"][/post]​

I think you have it backwards there - in communist China, the employees WOULD be forced to work (even for slave wages) and the management WOULD be punished for their sins. 😛

Here in the United States of America, where freedom reigns supreme, neither will occur. The employees won't be forced to work, and the managment you despise will go get other high-paying jobs at other companies after U's CFIT occurs. B)

 

[mwereplanes]

What do we have to gain?

What the hell do we have to lose?

mr

 

[nycbusdriver]

What pride is there in forcing 28,000 employees out of a job?

[post="187451"][/post]​

Nobody's forcing 28,000 employees out of a job. If the 3,000 pilots have had enough, the rest of the 25,000 employees can just continue to run the airline without them!

And nobody here seem to think that the IAM has any different plans. It's an open secret that the mechanics and related will probably hike if the company plans to force similar measures on them. But nobody calls them on their pride for forcing other people out of jobs, do they?

 

[jack mama]

Honestly, I don't think the IAM has the power to shut down the company if they strike...but the pilot's are a different story.

The company will just outsource the heavy work, and line mtc will be handled by those who cross and contract workers....just my guess.
It's also a guess that ALPA will cross an IAM picket line too....

I hope it doesn't come to that....We'll see in the next few weeks.....

 

[jack mama]

mwere,
a vote will show the true feelings of the pilot group, not 4 guys saying they have support.

i guess by your logic, you expect a better deal on the horizon if you hold out longer?

 

[blueskies4ever]

I definately am no expert with bankruptcy laws or procedures. Could someone please tell me how it is legal and just for a judge to cut employee wages and benefits and force them to work because of management's ineptness. Not to mention all groups have contracts. How is this possible? Is there nothing at all that protects the employees of a company in bankruptcy? Why should the employees go to hell because of management's "sins"?


The judge cant force anyone to work.What do you think federal marshalls are
going to start rounding people up and force them to work.B.S.

 

[USA320Pilot]

It's my understanding GECAS required the fragmentation the clause be eliminated after the RC4 did not send out the September 6 proposal for membership ratification. GECAS is concerned ALPA will burn the place down to the ground, similar to what the IAM did at Eastern. GECAS wants to protect its investment and have greater flexability to pull assests in a S.1110 motion. If GECAS takes aircraft back they do not want to jeopordize a deal with pilot transfers.

Mike Abram's, ALPA's legal counsel from Cowen, Weiss, and Simon, told the MEC and the RC4 that this could occur and the RC4 did not reach a TA and blocked the September 6 proposal from rank-and-file voting.

Abram was a valedictorian, Harvard Law School graduate, has worked for ALPA for 30 years, and is widely considered brilliant.

Againm, the MEC/RC4 was warned fragmentation could be lost by the union's our advisor's. Moreover, the advisor's continue to say it will keep getting worse if the pilot's do not ratify the TA.

Tony, we would ahve been much better off accepting the company's opener with a 16.5% pay cut, a 10% DC Plan, America West LTD and retiree health care, and all of our scope.

As Garland Jones said, "What else besides Fragmentation has disappeared in the company's offers, and remains gone in our present TA, from where we were in the company's Sept. 6 proposal?

1. DC Plan went from 50% to 10%.
2. Equity participation (stock) went from 19.33% to 8.5% of the total shares issued.
3. Minimum Aircraft (279) and minimum block hour guarantees are gone.
4. Contingent Acquisition Rights (protections in the case of a buyout) are gone.
5. Special Training Relief has been granted, allowing training out of seniority.
6. No MDA Displacement Rights while we are in bankruptcy.
7. J4J Displacement Rights are gone
8. Vacation went from maximum of 28 to 21 days.

Not bad enough? Try this. If we don't stop this carnage of what is left in our contract with this TA, every one of our financial and legal advisors are of the unanimous opinion that the company will take more, and significantly more, than this away from us during the 1113 process," Jones said.

ALPA's advisors have been 100% correct and the RC4 have been wrong all along, resulting in a worse and worse agreement for the pilot group.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[roadstar]

Man, USA320PILOT, you love to hear your self preach don't ya ....

 

[Rico]

It is my understanding that the main reason opponents to sending this TA out for a membership vote is that action would somehow prohibit Self-help actions in the distant future.

Where is that written, and what does that exactly mean....? I would like to know.

But regardless, Self-help might sound like great and importnat thing to those seeking some form of empowerment in this difficult situation, but how real an option is it...?

I know that we are unable to excercise any form of self-help while in the 1113 process. If the 23% paycut is imposed, we cannot do anything about that legally.

And during the entire negotiation process forced by the 1113c process, we again are unable to excercise and form of self-help legally....


So basically the only time we can strike or perform any kind of self-help action is after our CBA has been abrogated in court, right...?

Now wait a second, that would mean at that point, that ALPA (and I would assume the remaining large unions following our lead) would not yet have come to a deal in all of that time. All of that time in which our cash burned away, people booked away, and creditors repossesed away from what was left...?

So, people are trying to convince me that it is better for me not to decide my own fate, so as to still be able to tell everyone in the unemployment line that, "we could have gone on strike if Airways had not closed down"

Gee, that seems like a worthwhile thing to give up my vote (and plead for mercy from the judge instead) for... 🙄


Think People. This is Bankruptcy, not Fantasy-Land...

 

[RowUnderDCA]

I find this hard to follow too.

So, if the MEC accepts the TA and puts it to vote.

A. the vote is to accept.. then there would be no need (or ability) for self help

B. the vote is to reject.... then there would be the 1113e contract and eventually an 1113c contract.

C. if the judge abrogates and allows the co. to impose a contract, then ALPA can self-help.

D. if the judge abrogates and U imposes the very same TA that U MEC sent for ratification vote, is THAT when ALPA could not self-help?

That doesn't sound like a great strategy, if your goal is to work for U under a better contract than the TA. But, you could ride the sucker to the end of the line and then sue each other for the rest of your lives.... that's an option.

 

[mwereplanes]

It's my understanding GECAS required the fragmentation the clause be eliminated after the RC4 did not send out the September 6 proposal for membership ratification. GECAS is concerned ALPA will burn the place down to the ground, similar to what the IAM did at Eastern. GECAS wants to protect its investment and have greater flexability to pull assests in a S.1110 motion. If GECAS takes aircraft back they do not want to jeopordize a deal with pilot transfers.

Mike Abram's, ALPA's legal counsel from Cowen, Weiss, and Simon, told the MEC and the RC4 that this could occur and the RC4 did not reach a TA and blocked the September 6 proposal from rank-and-file voting.

Abram was a valedictorian, Harvard Law School graduate, has worked for ALPA for 30 years, and is widely considered brilliant.

Againm, the MEC/RC4 was warned fragmentation could be lost by the union's our advisor's. Moreover, the advisor's continue to say it will keep getting worse if the pilot's do not ratify the TA.

Tony, we would ahve been much better off accepting the company's opener with a 16.5% pay cut, a 10% DC Plan, America West LTD and retiree health care, and all of our scope.

As Garland Jones said, "What else besides Fragmentation has disappeared in the company's offers, and remains gone in our present TA, from where we were in the company's Sept. 6 proposal?

1. DC Plan went from 50% to 10%.
2. Equity participation (stock) went from 19.33% to 8.5% of the total shares issued.
3. Minimum Aircraft (279) and minimum block hour guarantees are gone.
4. Contingent Acquisition Rights (protections in the case of a buyout) are gone.
5. Special Training Relief has been granted, allowing training out of seniority.
6. No MDA Displacement Rights while we are in bankruptcy.
7. J4J Displacement Rights are gone
8. Vacation went from maximum of 28 to 21 days.

Not bad enough? Try this. If we don't stop this carnage of what is left in our contract with this TA, every one of our financial and legal advisors are of the unanimous opinion that the company will take more, and significantly more, than this away from us during the 1113 process," Jones said.

ALPA's advisors have been 100% correct and the RC4 have been wrong all along, resulting in a worse and worse agreement for the pilot group.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

[post="187562"][/post]​

Uh, we don't have an agreement sparky.

Whine and whine and whine some more. Get your ducks lined up because this place is not going to survive. It is very apparent to me, and others who understand what the fragmentation crap is all about, what this management is about to attempt. And we will not give in to allow Bronner to attempt to maximize his money without the pilots going with the jets.

Maybe the judge will allow it, maybe not. We (the majority of US Airways pilots) are not going to allow it by giving the vote to frazzled and cowardly pilots who will sell their own brothers down the river hoping against hope these cretins are going to run an airline and you will have a job. I think that shoe fits perfectly on your foot pal.

mr