Yea what I was saying is that there were questions and sorta answers , but they said the retro will be paid on time and you would get a letter in late NOV telling you what your retro would be and what each of your 8 installments would be.Bus as I understand it there would be stock and profit sharing for all, but I bet for the profit sharing to kick in the target will be so HIGH that I will not be standing at the mailbox waitng for my profit sharing checks
[blockquote]
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On 11/8/2002 10:01:28 AM Taipan wrote:
Yea what I was saying is that there were questions and sorta answers , but they said the retro will be paid on time and you would get a letter in late NOV telling you what your retro would be and what each of your 8 installments would be.Bus as I understand it there would be stock and profit sharing for all, but I bet for the profit sharing to kick in the target will be so HIGH that I will not be standing at the mailbox waitng for my profit sharing checks
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[/blockquote]
Yes, you are correct about the profit sharing. The threshold is VERY high. So it is a REAL sucker clause. Hopefully however, once the ATSB backed loan is paid and we are doing well, our mangement team will be smart enough to implement, unilaterally, some sort of profit sharing instead of buying back stock.
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On 11/8/2002 10:01:28 AM Taipan wrote:
Yea what I was saying is that there were questions and sorta answers , but they said the retro will be paid on time and you would get a letter in late NOV telling you what your retro would be and what each of your 8 installments would be.Bus as I understand it there would be stock and profit sharing for all, but I bet for the profit sharing to kick in the target will be so HIGH that I will not be standing at the mailbox waitng for my profit sharing checks
----------------
[/blockquote]
Yes, you are correct about the profit sharing. The threshold is VERY high. So it is a REAL sucker clause. Hopefully however, once the ATSB backed loan is paid and we are doing well, our mangement team will be smart enough to implement, unilaterally, some sort of profit sharing instead of buying back stock.
You know, it's always interesting to talk about who makes what. Everyone has an opinion on everyone's pay, be it pilot rates, VP rates, mech rates, management rates, FA rates. There is nothing wrong about having discussions, but some of the stuff here is outright unhealthy.
Look folks, we as the employees didn't lead us into this. However, everyone has had some part in this. There is plenty of blame/anger to go around. Yes, a lot of us had less of an influence on this than others (G-man, Rono), but all of us are no saits. Right now it does not matter who's fault it is. We have a serious problem to fix. Yes, we have to fix what others have broken. Let's give the folks who have been working on these TAs the chance to come up with plans that are to the benefit of our company, and hopefully to the benefit of us, the employees, in the future.
Look folks, we as the employees didn't lead us into this. However, everyone has had some part in this. There is plenty of blame/anger to go around. Yes, a lot of us had less of an influence on this than others (G-man, Rono), but all of us are no saits. Right now it does not matter who's fault it is. We have a serious problem to fix. Yes, we have to fix what others have broken. Let's give the folks who have been working on these TAs the chance to come up with plans that are to the benefit of our company, and hopefully to the benefit of us, the employees, in the future.
Why hasn't management come out with what their concessions are going to be?
It seems strange that they are not taking the first step here and showing the others where they stand.
Could it be that they do not want to show how little they are willing to give back, or are they waiting to see what it will take?
I guess I would have to ask the same question as the loan board. What is the 1.4 billion in non labor savings. Then I would ask why aren't they in place already.
If layoffs are imminent, why prolong them. We are going to pay severance to these employees. Why not do it so by the beginning of the year we are starting to save those costs.
The amount of time it is taking to make these decisions does not look good when we are under a time restraint. Unless there are other motives we cannot see.
I love a good mystery.
It seems strange that they are not taking the first step here and showing the others where they stand.
Could it be that they do not want to show how little they are willing to give back, or are they waiting to see what it will take?
I guess I would have to ask the same question as the loan board. What is the 1.4 billion in non labor savings. Then I would ask why aren't they in place already.
If layoffs are imminent, why prolong them. We are going to pay severance to these employees. Why not do it so by the beginning of the year we are starting to save those costs.
The amount of time it is taking to make these decisions does not look good when we are under a time restraint. Unless there are other motives we cannot see.
I love a good mystery.
I see the FA's have agreed to $412 million of savings. Let's see pilots $2.2 billion, F/A's $412 Million, that leaves about $2.9 billion. Assuming management gives about 10% of the total, that leaves about $2.3 billion for the IAM. The math isn't adding up. I think the ATSB will soon be chipping in with a resounding NO.
UAL777flyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 730
- 0
kscabpilot,
That's it. You get my nomination to replace Glenn Tilton as CEO. How often do you drag yourself into WHQ during the work week to actually see what people are doing? When was the last time you ever came through there, if ever? Now please don't give me the standard, ignorant, unintelligent mantra of oh they don't do anything, everybody knows that. Why don't you stop by and actually see? Allow yourself the ability to change your attitude. I've asked you before to come stop by my department and I'll actually show you what we do all day. It might actually surprise you. But people like you would never do that because it would actually force you to change your biased pre-conceived notions about management, which only highlights your lack of intelligence and understanding of how each group of people are different in the jobs they perform for the airline. You don't have the first clue what I do each and every day, so stop pretending that you do. To say that I do nothing would be a gross distortion of reality. You don't like the fact that I post messages while at work? Fine, you're entitled to that view. But don't attempt to enforce your opinion by assuming I do nothing. Cause if you had the guts to actually visit this place, I would shoot down that theory faster than you can say my jack of spades trumps your king! I'll put my work ethic up against anybody's any day of the week.
You see, while I completely believe that their are pockets of management at this airline that are wasteful and poor examples of leaders, I also realize that there are just as many, if not more, who perform vital work for this company and consistently go above and beyond the call of duty. The inefficiency lies everywhere. It is in each work group throughout the company, management included. It's Tilton's job to identify those areas and get rid of them once and for all. And that is what is happening. It may seem slow right now, but you have no clue how much change is coming. You better strap yourself in tight. In fact, better bolt that breakroom table down so that your cards don't spill on the floor!
P.S. I don't drink coffee, so that would make you 0 for 3 in your assumptions for the day!
That's it. You get my nomination to replace Glenn Tilton as CEO. How often do you drag yourself into WHQ during the work week to actually see what people are doing? When was the last time you ever came through there, if ever? Now please don't give me the standard, ignorant, unintelligent mantra of oh they don't do anything, everybody knows that. Why don't you stop by and actually see? Allow yourself the ability to change your attitude. I've asked you before to come stop by my department and I'll actually show you what we do all day. It might actually surprise you. But people like you would never do that because it would actually force you to change your biased pre-conceived notions about management, which only highlights your lack of intelligence and understanding of how each group of people are different in the jobs they perform for the airline. You don't have the first clue what I do each and every day, so stop pretending that you do. To say that I do nothing would be a gross distortion of reality. You don't like the fact that I post messages while at work? Fine, you're entitled to that view. But don't attempt to enforce your opinion by assuming I do nothing. Cause if you had the guts to actually visit this place, I would shoot down that theory faster than you can say my jack of spades trumps your king! I'll put my work ethic up against anybody's any day of the week.
You see, while I completely believe that their are pockets of management at this airline that are wasteful and poor examples of leaders, I also realize that there are just as many, if not more, who perform vital work for this company and consistently go above and beyond the call of duty. The inefficiency lies everywhere. It is in each work group throughout the company, management included. It's Tilton's job to identify those areas and get rid of them once and for all. And that is what is happening. It may seem slow right now, but you have no clue how much change is coming. You better strap yourself in tight. In fact, better bolt that breakroom table down so that your cards don't spill on the floor!
P.S. I don't drink coffee, so that would make you 0 for 3 in your assumptions for the day!
OK,
Here is a running total.
Pilots agree to fund 38% of total package, but they make up 10% of the work force.
FAs agree to fund 7% of total package, but they make up 28% of the work force.
Management WILL fund 15% of total package, but they make up 12% of the work force.
IAM is being asked to fund 40% of total package, but they make up 50% of the work force.
There are reasons why the numbers are what they are, but to say the numbers don't add up, that is funny. The IAM is being asked to provide an additional 100 mil over 5 1/2 years compared to the pilots. Yet it is the largest employee group on the property. Yeah, that is really unfair. But to WHOM? This is just a one big SNAFU.
Kcab,
I have to agree with UAL777, why don't you stop by WHQ some day before you bash all of us. Yes, there are some people that need to find work elsewhere, but to lump us all in with them........well then I invite you to come and see what us other grunts are up to. I wish the company would have a program where IAM/ALPA/AFA folks come through the Planning department and sit down with the folks here. I wish we could show you the numbers and the work we do. On the other side, I wish some of us grunts would get a chance to come out and experience your day in the life of UA. Maybe that would start bringing this place (UA) together?
Here is a running total.
Pilots agree to fund 38% of total package, but they make up 10% of the work force.
FAs agree to fund 7% of total package, but they make up 28% of the work force.
Management WILL fund 15% of total package, but they make up 12% of the work force.
IAM is being asked to fund 40% of total package, but they make up 50% of the work force.
There are reasons why the numbers are what they are, but to say the numbers don't add up, that is funny. The IAM is being asked to provide an additional 100 mil over 5 1/2 years compared to the pilots. Yet it is the largest employee group on the property. Yeah, that is really unfair. But to WHOM? This is just a one big SNAFU.
Kcab,
I have to agree with UAL777, why don't you stop by WHQ some day before you bash all of us. Yes, there are some people that need to find work elsewhere, but to lump us all in with them........well then I invite you to come and see what us other grunts are up to. I wish the company would have a program where IAM/ALPA/AFA folks come through the Planning department and sit down with the folks here. I wish we could show you the numbers and the work we do. On the other side, I wish some of us grunts would get a chance to come out and experience your day in the life of UA. Maybe that would start bringing this place (UA) together?
James Higgins of Credit Suisse First Boston said the pilots' actual pay cuts will improve UAL's cash flow by $1.03 billion, or less than half the $2.2 billion total.
What does this mean ? is he saying ALPAs deal is only worth half of what they claim ? or is this yearly for the 1st two years were there is no payraise and only the 18% cut?
What does this mean ? is he saying ALPAs deal is only worth half of what they claim ? or is this yearly for the 1st two years were there is no payraise and only the 18% cut?
UAL777flyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 730
- 0
sumsonic,
There actually used to be a program like that in place at UA during the ESOP. I believe it was called the Walk A Mile program where you'd walk a mile in someone else's shoes. Not sure if it was a company-wide program or just for ALPA. I had the pleasure of meeting mancityfan several months ago. He took the time on his days off to visit with me here at WHQ and get an idea of what we do. He then tried to get me approval to ride the jumpseat on one of his flights. But, due to post-9/11 security restrictions, it wasn't possible. But I applaud him for trying. I've suggested such a program before on internal dept surveys. Spending time with another job classification helps break down barriers that have so hampered this company's success. I'd imagine that the majority of workers in the field have the same mentality of management employees as people like mastermechanic and kcabpilot do. Sadly, it's ironic that probably most of these folks have never even spent time in WHQ to see what goes on and instead formulate their opinions of all management employees based on one of their own supervisors or managers. That only serves to highlight the ignorance level. There are literally thousands of employees at this airline who perform critical work day-in and day-out, without which this airline simply could not operate. And even sadder still is that those folks are largely overlooked and taken for granted.
So, while I realize that there will always be a level of friction between management employees and organized labor, much could be done to keep it at a modest level that does not interfere with the ability of this company to be successful. But most people should be intelligent enough not to paint an entire group with the same stereotypical brush. United has a lot of work to do in that area!
There actually used to be a program like that in place at UA during the ESOP. I believe it was called the Walk A Mile program where you'd walk a mile in someone else's shoes. Not sure if it was a company-wide program or just for ALPA. I had the pleasure of meeting mancityfan several months ago. He took the time on his days off to visit with me here at WHQ and get an idea of what we do. He then tried to get me approval to ride the jumpseat on one of his flights. But, due to post-9/11 security restrictions, it wasn't possible. But I applaud him for trying. I've suggested such a program before on internal dept surveys. Spending time with another job classification helps break down barriers that have so hampered this company's success. I'd imagine that the majority of workers in the field have the same mentality of management employees as people like mastermechanic and kcabpilot do. Sadly, it's ironic that probably most of these folks have never even spent time in WHQ to see what goes on and instead formulate their opinions of all management employees based on one of their own supervisors or managers. That only serves to highlight the ignorance level. There are literally thousands of employees at this airline who perform critical work day-in and day-out, without which this airline simply could not operate. And even sadder still is that those folks are largely overlooked and taken for granted.
So, while I realize that there will always be a level of friction between management employees and organized labor, much could be done to keep it at a modest level that does not interfere with the ability of this company to be successful. But most people should be intelligent enough not to paint an entire group with the same stereotypical brush. United has a lot of work to do in that area!
spacewaitress
Senior
- Aug 27, 2002
- 468
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/11/2002 1:32:15 PM sumsonic wrote:
OK,
Here is a running total.
Pilots agree to fund 38% of total package, but they make up 10% of the work force.
FAs agree to fund 7% of total package, but they make up 28% of the work force.
Management WILL fund 15% of total package, but they make up 12% of the work force.
IAM is being asked to fund 40% of total package, but they make up 50% of the work force.
----------------
[/blockquote]
YOur post appears to be a misrepresentation of the numbers. Using your reasoning, the pilots should take a 10% hit, while the flight attendants should take a whopping 28% hit.
The only legitimate and fair comparisons are reflected in the ratio of employee payroll cost to total payroll costs. I'm being asked to take a pay cut without any raise for 5 full years. I guarantee your ERP will not include that!
Why don't we all just suck it up and do our fair share - or this company will go the way of the dinosaurs.
----------------
On 11/11/2002 1:32:15 PM sumsonic wrote:
OK,
Here is a running total.
Pilots agree to fund 38% of total package, but they make up 10% of the work force.
FAs agree to fund 7% of total package, but they make up 28% of the work force.
Management WILL fund 15% of total package, but they make up 12% of the work force.
IAM is being asked to fund 40% of total package, but they make up 50% of the work force.
----------------
[/blockquote]
YOur post appears to be a misrepresentation of the numbers. Using your reasoning, the pilots should take a 10% hit, while the flight attendants should take a whopping 28% hit.
The only legitimate and fair comparisons are reflected in the ratio of employee payroll cost to total payroll costs. I'm being asked to take a pay cut without any raise for 5 full years. I guarantee your ERP will not include that!
Why don't we all just suck it up and do our fair share - or this company will go the way of the dinosaurs.
spacewaitress,
I was simply stating the numbers. I am not in anyway saying that the AFA should take a 28% pay cut. We all know that each group's costs per employee are different. I think if the folks that worked on these TAs did their job, then this is where we ended up as a whole (United Airlines). I'm just stating the numbers. However, I'm having a hard time with folks from the IAM saying that the math is not adding up. We have almost everyone in on the ERP, hopefully everyone will sign up. Also, it sounds like we will have a salaried employee package soon, and I agree with what you say, we all just suck it up and do our fair share - or this company will go the way of the dinosaurs.
I was simply stating the numbers. I am not in anyway saying that the AFA should take a 28% pay cut. We all know that each group's costs per employee are different. I think if the folks that worked on these TAs did their job, then this is where we ended up as a whole (United Airlines). I'm just stating the numbers. However, I'm having a hard time with folks from the IAM saying that the math is not adding up. We have almost everyone in on the ERP, hopefully everyone will sign up. Also, it sounds like we will have a salaried employee package soon, and I agree with what you say, we all just suck it up and do our fair share - or this company will go the way of the dinosaurs.
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