We all need to wake up

[nostradamus]

No trumpeting - just doing a little history study of your pilot group.

We both have interesting stories to tell, don't we.

 

[EastUS]

Drop the suit, accept the Nicolau list, and enter into negotiations with us through the JNC as equals and then we'll both get closure.

Dream on..."accept the Nicolau list" is NEVER going to happen...PERIOD. The east sees this "award"/gift/atrocity for what it truly is. The notions out east become more, rather than less entrenched as time passes. Until this is realistically acknowledged by the west, there's nothing else to discuss as per "negotiations", much less "closure" of any sort. West cries of "extortion"/"your MEC did this"/"binding arbitration"/any and all of the standard west rationalizing....do nothing whatsoever to change the situation.

 

[Mr Furlough]

Dream on..."accept the Nicolau list" is NEVER going to happen...PERIOD. The east sees this "award"/gift/atrocity for what it truly is. The notions out east become more, rather than less entrenched as time passes. Until this is realistically acknowledged by the west, there's nothing else to discuss as per "negotiations", much less "closure" of any sort. West cries of "extortion"/"your MEC did this"/"binding arbitration"/any and all of the standard west rationalizing....do nothing whatsoever to change the situation.

I agree...totally!

 

[b737fo]

Dream on..."accept the Nicolau list" is NEVER going to happen...PERIOD. The east sees this "award"/gift/atrocity for what it truly is. The notions out east become more, rather than less entrenched as time passes. Until this is realistically acknowledged by the west, there's nothing else to discuss as per "negotiations", much less "closure" of any sort. West cries of "extortion"/"your MEC did this"/"binding arbitration"/any and all of the standard west rationalizing....do nothing whatsoever to change the situation.

I don't see any upside into the West throwing out the Nicolau decision. It appears the East will not be happy until they get DOH which is as unacceptable to the West as you say the arbitration results are to the East. Doing nothing whatsoever to change the situation seems like it protects the relative seniority of the West list more than any resolution that the East would be happy with.

At least the upside to management in this whole debacle is that they will not be obligated to give pay raises to either side for years which will keep their costs down. I find it just as amusing when an East pilot thinks he/she will get pay parity with the West as when a West pilot thinks section 6 will provide for a new contract anytime before 2012.

 

[Mr Furlough]

I don't see any upside into the West throwing out the Nicolau decision. It appears the East will not be happy until they get DOH which is as unacceptable to the West as you say the arbitration results are to the East. Doing nothing whatsoever to change the situation seems like it protects the relative seniority of the West list more than any resolution that the East would be happy with.

At least the upside to management in this whole debacle is that they will not be obligated to give pay raises to either side for years which will keep their costs down. I find it just as amusing when an East pilot thinks he/she will get pay parity with the West as when a West pilot thinks section 6 will provide for a new contract anytime before 2012.

I never understood where the whole "relative seniority" concept came from in the first place. It seems like an oxymoron when you consider what seniority actually is. I suppose that's why we are where we are.

As for pay parity, I personally could care less. If the west pilots get a nice pay raise: good for them. Personally, I think that pay parity is something ALPA National is peddling. And our mec is simply abiding by their wishes. I like money just as much as the next guy. But not at the price of giving up the upward mobility that I have waited so long to realize.

 

[Bear96]

I never understood where the whole "relative seniority" concept came from in the first place.

From the ALPA merger policy.

For better or worse, ALPA moved away from "absolute seniority" (i.e., DOH) quite a while ago. Sorry you had to find out this way. Maybe you should have been paying closer attention.

 

[BajaBabe]

The West guys are still strutting around the chicken coop as if they are actually going to be spared. Sorry Sand Dunes the East Pilots have been led down the bloody trail and they have all paid dearly to keep the ship afloat. So what you have is an award that will turn to dust. I do not care what you BOZO's think you are entitled to. That award will NEVER take effect. I never have to call you Captain unless you really see this whole mess for what it is. Doug and his apostles are sitting there laughing all the way to the bank.In the scheme of things you do not see the pawns that you are.

 

[EastUS]

I don't see any upside into the West throwing out the Nicolau decision. It appears the East will not be happy until they get DOH which is as unacceptable to the West as you say the arbitration results are to the East. Doing nothing whatsoever to change the situation seems like it protects the relative seniority of the West list more than any resolution that the East would be happy with.

At least the upside to management in this whole debacle is that they will not be obligated to give pay raises to either side for years which will keep their costs down. I find it just as amusing when an East pilot thinks he/she will get pay parity with the West as when a West pilot thinks section 6 will provide for a new contract anytime before 2012.

Pretty much my overall take on things as well, with the exception that as blasphemous as it may seem to fellow east guys/gals...I'm thinking that something less than a pure DOH might work out eventually. Having said the last: The Nic thing's just dead meat in our thinking. Placing a "Three month old" even or ahead of a "19 year old" is unthinkable to us.

 

[prechilill]

Pretty much my overall take on things as well, with the exception that as blasphemous as it may seem to fellow east guys/gals...I'm thinking that something less than a pure DOH might work out eventually.

Agree 100%. Although not absolute, credit for years of service should have been factored in to the integration to some degree. More fences were needed for both sides.
Flame away. h34r:

 

[EastUS]

Agree 100%. Although not absolute, credit for years of service should have been factored in to the integration to some degree. More fences were needed for both sides.
Flame away. h34r:

No flames from my viewpoint. I'd love to see us all actually work something out that we can live with as a group. I think that such is merely a fantasy at the current time though.

 

[CV580ETOPS]

All I'm saying is; it simply isn't going down this way folks. The seniority issue needs closure before either/both group(s) can move forward with any meaningful results.

You don't get closure until a palatable resolution to the Nicolau award exist.

You don't get a reasonable/joint contract until a palatable resolution to the Nicolau award exist.

This is a very real problem. And until the west comes to it's senses and embraces the problems of the Nicolau award, we will be all be right back here bitching on the board-empty handed.

I don't know who is a sicker sonvabetch you or EastUS

 

[EastUS]

I don't know who is a sicker sonvabetch you or EastUS

At least you evidence signs of having an open mind, and are still evaluating the issues

 

[Mr Furlough]

I don't know who is a sicker sonvabetch you or EastUS

CV580ETOPS,

Care to elaborate? All I'm saying is that the Nicolau Award is in the way of progress. Those whom expect that it stands, are simply wrong. I wouldn't expect any pilot, east, west, north or south to except such damaging mechanisms levied to their career.

You say that's sick?

 

[Mr Furlough]

From the ALPA merger policy.

For better or worse, ALPA moved away from "absolute seniority" (i.e., DOH) quite a while ago. Sorry you had to find out this way. Maybe you should have been paying closer attention.

We can all pull snippets from that document to make our points. Mine would to refer to windfalls at the expense of the other group. But hey, we are going to be chasing our tails over that argument.

I ask you, do you think that the east will ever except the Nicolau Award and join hands with you in brotherhood for a contract? Ah, so...reality is a part of this after all!

It really boils down to; does the west want to work out an agreement other that what Nicolau has proposed in order to put the airline together? I agree, you most likely feel as though you've got a bird in hand. Yet you're empty handed. The east feels as though the Nicolau award warrants splitting the airline. Thus we are empty handed (oh, but there is that attrition thing-including wide body flying).

So here we are, questioning one's sanity. Brilliant!

 

[BoeingBoy]

....join hands with you in brotherhood....you most likely feel as though you've got a bird in hand. Yet you're empty handed.

Maybe we need a sticky thread on who all the players in this forum are. Bear isn't a West pilot.

Jim