We all need to wake up

[Cactus737]

From the ALPA merger policy.

For better or worse, ALPA moved away from "absolute seniority" (i.e., DOH) quite a while ago. Sorry you had to find out this way. Maybe you should have been paying closer attention.

And interestingly enough, that change was made by the current US Airways MEC Vice-Chairman, back when a date-of-hire integration wouldn't have fared so well for AAA.

Agree 100%. Although not absolute, credit for years of service should have been factored in to the integration to some degree. More fences were needed for both sides.
Flame away. h34r:

It is factored in.... East pilots get a financial windfall in a joint agreement at the expense of West pilots due to East's lower pay and higher longevity.

We can all pull snippets from that document to make our points. Mine would to refer to windfalls at the expense of the other group. But hey, we are going to be chasing our tails over that argument.

I ask you, do you think that the east will ever except the Nicolau Award and join hands with you in brotherhood for a contract? Ah, so...reality is a part of this after all!

It really boils down to; does the west want to work out an agreement other that what Nicolau has proposed in order to put the airline together? I agree, you most likely feel as though you've got a bird in hand. Yet you're empty handed. The east feels as though the Nicolau award warrants splitting the airline. Thus we are empty handed (oh, but there is that attrition thing-including wide body flying).

So here we are, questioning one's sanity. Brilliant!

Here's another view of the same situation....

there's nothing that will make the East pilots happy that the West pilot are willing to ratify. That's why we went to binding arbitration. The Nicolau Award is a huge compromise for the West. We'd rather stay separate than give into any of your pandering. And read the Transition Agreement before you think that being separate would entitle you to all of the upgrades.

But - it appears to me that you're open to resolution. So dare I ask - what do YOU think is an acceptable resolution? I think your answer will prove my point.

 

[nostradamus]

It is factored in.... East pilots get a financial windfall in a joint agreement at the expense of West pilots due to East's lower pay and higher longevity.

exibit a, your witness

 

[Cactus737]

exibit a, your witness

Exhibit A from what? Certainly not the arbitration. Try reading the transcripts about the financial windfall that the East will get.

Your MEC was so afraid of that argument being considered by the arbitrator that they tried to find every technicality in the book to reject the evidence and prevent the West JNC member from testifying. Their desperation backfired however, as it only convinced the arbitrator of it's credibility.

 

[nostradamus]

Exhibit A from what? Certainly not the arbitration. Try reading the transcripts about the financial windfall that the East will get.

Your MEC was so afraid of that argument being considered by the arbitrator that they tried to find every technicality in the book to reject the evidence and prevent the West JNC member from testifying. Their desperation backfired however, as it only convinced the arbitrator of it's credibility.

You made a point in your previous message, I made a counterpoint, reply please. Click on exhibit a.

 

[EastUS]

We'd rather stay separate than give into any of your pandering. And read the Transition Agreement before you think that being separate would entitle you to all of the upgrades.

OK: "We'd rather stay separate than give into any of your pandering."

It seems like we've an accord then.

As for your: "East pilots get a financial windfall in a joint agreement" You might find better methods of advancing your issue. Any "joint agreement" would necessitate negotiation and ratification by the east...ie = the majority, and is a BS consideration wholly divorced from the Nic issue. Try selling the "Waah!!...Gimme yours...I mean MINE!" in some other fashion. Thirty pieces of silver's getting to be a tired west "argument".

 

[flyboeing737]

OK little boy, take your section 6 and go back to your sand box.

BINDING ARBITRATION!!!!

Game Over Gramps

 

[EastUS]

BINDING ARBITRATION!!!!

Game Over Gramps

Step momentarily away from the Playstation and try to grasp the following:

"Placing a "Three month old" even or ahead of a "19 year old" is unthinkable to us."

Good Luck

 

[N965VJ]

Maybe we need a sticky thread on who all the players in this forum are. Bear isn't a West pilot.

Jim

… and this thread was started by an east FA.

“Just sayinâ€￾, LOL.

 

[Mr Furlough]

And interestingly enough, that change was made by the current US Airways MEC Vice-Chairman, back when a date-of-hire integration wouldn't have fared so well for AAA.
It is factored in.... East pilots get a financial windfall in a joint agreement at the expense of West pilots due to East's lower pay and higher longevity.
Here's another view of the same situation....

there's nothing that will make the East pilots happy that the West pilot are willing to ratify. That's why we went to binding arbitration. The Nicolau Award is a huge compromise for the West. We'd rather stay separate than give into any of your pandering. And read the Transition Agreement before you think that being separate would entitle you to all of the upgrades.

But - it appears to me that you're open to resolution. So dare I ask - what do YOU think is an acceptable resolution? I think your answer will prove my point.

There are three issues that I have with the Nicolau Award. First, placing a two year guy ahead of a guy hired in 1989-returned from furlough prior to the award-is a deal breaker.

Second, The number of younger, more junior pilots ahead of older and longer tenured pilots in the east.

And finally, the precedence. As if this is how future mergers are to be decided, we may as well dispose of the seniority system all together.

The younger, less tenured pilots of AWA will have more than adequate time to progress, and capture the benefits of this merger. To place them ahead of those whom don't enjoy the time aspect of this concept, is unacceptable.

The Nicolau award is dead my friend. Gone, with no benefit to you. You speak of the compromises the west made with this award. Your position couldn't be any further from the truth. The resolution ahead by our prospective leaders will most certainly leave you totally flipped out. But that day is coming, so try and put it all into perspective.

Cactus737, you sure do a lot of huffing and puffing on this issue. Therefore, this will be the last time I address you on this issue. I have my own children to deal with. And you must be too old for any hope of constructive parenting.

P.S. (it was the united guys that changed the merger policy at the national level.)

 

[Hawkhunter]

BINDING ARBITRATION!!!!

Game Over Gramps

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. I picture some snot nose kid crying, stomping the floor and screaming "BINDING ARBITRATION!"

 

[767jetz]

It really boils down to; does the west want to work out an agreement other that what Nicolau has proposed in order to put the airline together?

First of all, Nicolau did not "propose" anything. He Ruled on it. It's not a suggestion, it's a legal ruling by an arbitrator that you willingly agreed to submit to.

Secondly, the West did want to work out an agreement. But you guys did not, and forced the matter beyond the mediation phase and all the way to binding arbitration. Why do you keep ignoring/denying this fact?

Prater has no choice but to forward the list to the company.

 

[ussnark]

First of all, Nicolau did not "propose" anything. He Ruled on it. It's not a suggestion, it's a legal ruling by an arbitrator that you willingly agreed to submit to.

Secondly, the West did want to work out an agreement. But you guys did not, and forced the matter beyond the mediation phase and all the way to binding arbitration. Why do you keep ignoring/denying this fact?

Prater has no choice but to forward the list to the company.

Sorry.

1. Nicolau "ruled" on a proposal. Proposal falls through, no ruling.

2. There is a little problem with your use of "legal". Until, in fact, such a "ruling" has been tested against the hosting unions guidelines (ALPA merger policy), it can hardly be considered "legal", much less "ruling". That test could take, what, five years, at best?

3. My understanding was that the "West" chose not to work out an agreement. In fact, transcripts indicate they were, seemingly, just as as intransigent as the "East".

4. Prater will balance losing the US pilots vs acting to support a flawed list. For all the wrong reasons he will likely invalidate the "award", for dues.

 

[767jetz]

For all the wrong reasons he will likely invalidate the "award", for dues.

I guess we'll see. I just don't think that's going to happen. The list will eventually be forwarded. (IMO)

 

[Junebug172]

Sorry.

1. Nicolau "ruled" on a proposal. Proposal falls through, no ruling.

2. There is a little problem with your use of "legal". Until, in fact, such a "ruling" has been tested against the hosting unions guidelines (ALPA merger policy), it can hardly be considered "legal", much less "ruling". That test could take, what, five years, at best?

3. My understanding was that the "West" chose not to work out an agreement. In fact, transcripts indicate they were, seemingly, just as as intransigent as the "East".

4. Prater will balance losing the US pilots vs acting to support a flawed list. For all the wrong reasons he will likely invalidate the "award", for dues.

1. Nicolau ruled based on testimony given from both sides. His decision is final and binding to both parties.

2. The ruling IS "legal and binding" and needs no affirmation by the courts. Your legal knowledge sounds like it is coming from a mildly retarded baboon. You should stop listening to it.

3. The east dug their hole and stayed in it. It is now too deep to climb out of.

4. Prater cannot and will not change even a comma in the decision. It is OUR award and we will enjoy it together.

 

[nostradamus]

1. Nicolau ruled based on testimony given from both sides. His decision is final and binding to both parties.

2. The ruling IS "legal and binding" and needs no affirmation by the courts. Your legal knowledge sounds like it is coming from a mildly retarded baboon. You should stop listening to it.

3. The east dug their hole and stayed in it. It is now too deep to climb out of.

4. Prater cannot and will not change even a comma in the decision. It is OUR award and we will enjoy it together.

Senator McCain, conflict of interest problem for you.