We all need to wake up

[exB717Flyer]

DOH is reasonble...it has been for years...

Then why did Nicolau and both pilot neutrals not decide to grant it? Oh yeah, that pesky no-windfall-at-the-other's-expense clause. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You claim that the Nic Award is a windfall to AWA yet you deny that DOH is a windfall to AAA. You refuse to accept that maybe, just maybe, Nicolau ruled what he felt was fair without prejudice, vindictiveness, and within the parameters set forth by ALPA Merger Policy. So you don't get to say "DOH is reasonable" when you don't know what reasonableness is.

 

[IMisstheAladdinTrays]

The DOH issue is a tough one to get past.

Date of Hire is concrete and can not be manipulated. There is no "Fairness Test" with strict DOH, therefore it can not by its very nature "Fooled With". It's arbitrary and simple.

Now when you get people involved with much to gain and much to lose, fairness is self defined. So if there are 5,000 pilots, there are 5,000 definitions of what's "Fair"

Given the above I think Doug is going to have to "Buy" peace with the pilots otherwise he puts his company at risk of at minimum continued shoddy performance and modest profits, or at worst C11 orC7.

It's not the worst position in the world to be in, having the CEO come to you hat in hand asking "What's it gonna take for you folks to play nice in the Sandbox?"

To me the trick is to keep this little penis measuring contest going until the money looks right, then grab the darn money, shake hands, smile & wave to the crowd.

Piney for CEO

 

[ussnark]

If you can throw out an arbitrator's ruling, then what's the purpose of an arbitrator?

What recourse does one have if the arbitrator does not follow the sponsoring organizations guidelines?

 

[ussnark]

Oh boy here we go. I believe the "BK2" thing (West) about as much as the "days away from liquidation" thing (East) that some of these posters throw around on this board. It is too easy for anyone to spin the "what if" scenarios of these two airlines if the merger had not occurred to make their argument look better. In the end we will never know what these two airlines were capable of, good or bad, if we had not tried to combine.

No need to spin anything. Your boy Parker was the one to reveal the A&W one-way ticket to the poor house. The outing of Zanzibar was simply icing on the cake. Now, that is the stuff Parker knew about.

To say that he knew what he was told from the car salesmen from CCY would be truthful. To say he knew enough about US to opine as to its future puts you on iffy ground, at best.

 

[luvn737s]

Piney-
When two airlines with similar demographics merge, DOH and the slotting system are virtually identical. Because there was such disparity in longevities between AWA and US, DOH could not work.

It's just that simple.

 

[legacy-to-LCC]

It's just that simple.

no it's not.
what's simple (and right) is DOH.

 

[TechBoy]

no it's not.
what's simple (and right) is DOH.

Do any of the East pilots really believe this? Hundreds of working AWA pilots should be thrown out of their jobs while hundreds of furloughed US pilots take their place?

There are certainly a number of judgment calls in the Nic Award. Some of them could go a number of ways and still meet the merger guidelines. But I don't see how DOH could ever meet the merger guidelines.

 

[ussnark]

Do any of the East pilots really believe this? Hundreds of working AWA pilots should be thrown out of their jobs while hundreds of furloughed US pilots take their place?

There are certainly a number of judgment calls in the Nic Award. Some of them could go a number of ways and still meet the merger guidelines. But I don't see how DOH could ever meet the merger guidelines.

When you accept DOH, you enter a place with many options and opportunities called "conditions and restrictions". You can protect your position and advancement despite further merger events. While you likely care to not consider it, what if you have 25 years seniority and another company buys you shouting "relative seniority" you are shoved to the bottom of some list, worse yet, put on reserve. Most important, their shouting will include legal and proper verbiage such as "past practice", etc.

We have already seen it with the US/Piedmont merger. Piedmont, relatively young and senior, wanted slotting, like you. Kagel, the arbitrator, asked Piedmont if they would change a previous merger, that with Empire, where the pilots were basically stapled to the bottom of the list, to slotting those folks. The Piedmont merger committee, led by the US merger committee chairman now, said no and the rest is history, DOH, for all intents and purposes, prevailed, though the "punishment" was, for all intents and purposes mitigated by conditions and restrictions.

You may wish to consider the future, when you are not quite as marketable as you are now. When you cannot make changes as you can, now. Twenty five years and you will be pulling gear for some twenty three year old who was born when you got your ATP. For once, think ahead.

 

[legacy-to-LCC]

Do any of the East pilots really believe this? Hundreds of working AWA pilots should be thrown out of their jobs while hundreds of furloughed US pilots take their place?

There are certainly a number of judgment calls in the Nic Award. Some of them could go a number of ways and still meet the merger guidelines. But I don't see how DOH could ever meet the merger guidelines.

you are as pathetic as your leader (DoUgIe)!! you want to re-invent the wheel because your situation sucks...guess what? life sucks!! you chose to work for a third class, regional carrier who has been operating for 24 years. you CHOSE to work for this carrier, fully recognizing that mergers are a reality of this industry and that any airline you merged with would be senior to you!! yes, you CHOSE that reality for yourself!!
now you whine and cry...reinventing the wheel...relative this, relative that.
shut up!! sorry for your luck!! tough toenails!!
you CHOSE your situation!!! and, your drunken management team (that we easties unfortunately inherited, too) is as pathetic as you!!
DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!!

 

[autofixer]

It's funny, my new company ID says DOH July 1987 on the back. I suspect it will continue to say that even after I lose 17 years due to Nic.

 

[ussnark]

Great, AAA raised 600 million. Ok, why is the west even here then? I reckon there must be more to that story.

Is that the guy who got himself in a jam at security a few years back?

Actually, I believe he finally had to relieve the pressure from around the US gonads so they could breath. He made out like the king he is.

 

[TechBoy]

you are as pathetic as your leader (DoUgIe)!! you want to re-invent the wheel because your situation sucks...guess what? life sucks!! you chose to work for a third class, regional carrier who has been operating for 24 years. you CHOSE to work for this carrier, fully recognizing that mergers are a reality of this industry and that any airline you merged with would be senior to you!! yes, you CHOSE that reality for yourself!!
now you whine and cry...reinventing the wheel...relative this, relative that.
shut up!! sorry for your luck!! tough toenails!!
you CHOSE your situation!!! and, your drunken management team (that we easties unfortunately inherited, too) is as pathetic as you!!
DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!! DOH!!

OK, boys, settle down. First off, I don't work for US so this doesn't affect me directly. Second, all of your (very lame) arguments would apply equally or better to you. You knew that ALPA merger guidelines do not use DOH as a standard. You knew that US had large numbers of very senior pilots on furlough. Why didn't you leave? Why don't you "shut up" because "you CHOSE you situation?"

Back to the topic, I guess what surprises me so much is the incessant chanting of "DOH" when that seems totally unrealistic in this situation. Some of the East folks have made some colorable arguments that portions of the award may not be in alignment with ALPA policy, e.g., attrition expectations, but none have been made for DOH except emotional rants. Are there any?

 

[ussnark]

I do believe that even though a new hire FO at AWA was only around for a couple of months they still brought something tangible to the merger that an inactive furloughed pilot at AAA could not.

Your boy is still on probation and you want to put him over someone who has several years outside of probation?

Are you, like, a little whacko?

 

[b737fo]

Your boy is still on probation and you want to put him over someone who has several years outside of probation?

Are you, like, a little whacko?

No I want to put the pilot who is employed by AWA/AAA ahead of the pilot who is unemployed by AWA/AAA. I don't think that is really wacko but I am sure you won't agree with me.

 

[l8rd8r]

Really? Because entitlement to me is when a furloughed employee thinks they can step over all of the active employees to secure the next left seat block holding position available when they did not even bring a job to the merger.

So whats the price of their sacrifice?