USAPA Files

[EastUS]

Bear, your posts are perhaps confusing to a few simpletons around here who think in one dimension only. The rest of us objectively understand your points made in your posts and they are well articulated and crystal clear. It seems another wise-owl who has since retired understands the futility of exchanging ideas with a myopic, chronically-angry select group of indiviuals around here.

Well..garsh/golly/gee whiz/etc...it's all clear to me now sir/ma'am/whatever :blink: ....Ya' know?...I've NEVER met any Alpoid who wasn't fully replete with self ascribed fantasies of intellectual competence...even when offered during times of total, and wholesale surrender,...or...in this case; within the hideous debacle of an Alpo engineered utter deadlock. Such sorts are typically derisive of mere line pilots whom, were they as "smart" would "naturally" be smarming and slithering their way into Alpo Oriffice jobs instead of actually flying. It's clear that the only benefit age and experience offers within your tiny notebook is ascribed only to a single "wise old owl" that, for seemingly perverse reasons of his own, actually agrees with your preposterous position. Any opposed, even if far more numerous aged owls, are clearly bereft of all wisdom and indeed, merely "simple minded". :unsure:

QUOTE (prechilill @ Nov 22 2007, 04:13 PM)
However, one day you will figure out why the rest of the piloting profession is looking at your antics with subtle disdain"

I've seen no evidence whatsoever of that myself. Were such even the case... I'm happy to take the opinions of my peers and comrades out here over any fatuous notions from your ilk.

Happy Thanksgiving, and thanks for yet more chuckles

PS: Speaking of chuckles; At some point?...It'd be great to hear ANY possible, by which I mean actually workable within the real world, "solutions" that you may have to offer. We've spent enough time hearing any/all of the latest propoganda from the Alpoid ride barkers in Fantasyland.

 

[luvn737s]

PS: Speaking of chuckles; At some point?...It'd be great to hear ANY possible, by which I mean actually workable within the real world, "solutions" that you may have to offer. We've spent enough time hearing any/all of the latest propoganda from the Alpoid ride barkers in Fantasyland.

This type of open-mindedness during negotiations probably would have avoided having Nicolau involved at all. You can stir all the no-doze you want into your Starbucks, but eventually the east will end up sleeping in the bed they've made.

 

[luvn737s]

Extortion or not, ALPA's ground rules or not, we're not anywhere closer to an agreement than ever before. If anything we're farther apart.

Is this an example of U-SAPs style of leadership? Anarchy, tyranny, poverty!

Why should anyone trust that U-SAPs will abide by the constitution they write (without input from the west mind you) when they blatantly ignore the rules of the game they're presently involved in? What track record of integrity will they point to to try and pursuade voters to support them? "Extortion or not"! I am astonished at what I just read.

 

[EastUS]

You can stir all the no-doze you want into your Starbucks, but eventually the east will end up sleeping in the bed they've made.

Well...I asked for chuckles and I got 'em

Seriously though folks...happy Thanksgiving. Regardless of all the current mess.

 

[luvn737s]

And one day you will figure out why the USAirways east pilots don't give a rat's patootie how the rest of the piloting profession is looking at our "antics," as you call it. We've decided that we've been to the bottom already, and will not go any lower no matter WHAT ANYONE THINKS! Over the years ALPA and rotten management have backed us us into a corner like a tired, hungry wolf. Now that the wolf has turned and begun to snarl at you, you are somehow surprised to see fangs?

Well I'm sure that imagery makes you feel better. For a while. But sooner or later they'll see that all this rhetoric isn't producing real benefits to the hungry wolf and they'll decide to get rid of the pack leader that was promising them a herd big of elk and go satisfy their appetites with a few plentiful deer.

If ALPA had separated the seniority integration from the joint contract in the TA ( I think they were assuming rational behavior when the TA was written) then they could deal with each issue separately instead of giving so many parties veto power that a stalemate was preordained. Every party involved should have stuck to their responsibilities and we would be toasting a new contract by now.

 

[Dog Wonder]

This could go on forever without any resolution.

What is a solution acceptable to both groups?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Is this an example of U-SAPs style of leadership? Anarchy, tyranny, poverty!

Why should anyone trust that U-SAPs will abide by the constitution they write (without input from the west mind you) when they blatantly ignore the rules of the game they're presently involved in? What track record of integrity will they point to to try and pursuade voters to support them? "Extortion or not"! I am astonished at what I just read.

Just to keep it in perspective, try reading the reply in total. To save you time I re-posted it here for you. Maybe your astonishment is now one of enlightenment.

I pointed out that it's not working, as is. It's never going to work under ALPA, as is. Therefore, you must be fine with how things are going to conclude, as is. Extortion or not, ALPA's ground rules or not, we're not anywhere closer to an agreement than ever before. If anything we're farther apart.

If you want to rehash everything, accuse all with the same crap as is, and really not provide some kind of solution looking forward. Then so be it. Oh well.

So now its anarchy, tyranny, poverty! I just want to make sure I got that right. Where are we now under ALPA? So what's your point? Or just keep tossing crap until you feel you hit something. I guess by your post you have no clue. It really doesn't surprise me.

Why is it you can't seem to figure out the USAPA leadership is not connected to the current MEC? Your continued efforts to tie the two together seems very odd as it pertains to your particular argument. Or is that the fall back position when you have no other credible solution? The USAPA track record starts at day 1 after the election.

Finally, if you want to put in your input, there are at least 4 ways to contact the USAPA leadership. Why don't you offer yours? Oh yea, I heard about some of the past input and phone calls, decorum dictates that it cannot be repeated. So much for the west input. I didn't expect anything credible anyway. Why start now?

 

[sharktooth]

Why should anyone trust that U-SAPs will abide by the constitution they write (without input from the west mind you) when they blatantly ignore the rules of the game they're presently involved in? What track record of integrity will they point to to try and pursuade voters to support them? "Extortion or not"! I am astonished at what I just read.

You speak from ignorance.

No one is ignoring "the rules". Why don't you and your west cohorts actually try to engage in writing the Constitution and composing the Bylaws. It is the only way you will be able to "protect" your expectations.

Get involved and get to work. Instead of spewing ridiculous blather from fear, report back here exactly what you find out. The bed you eventually find yourself in will be close to comfortable and get better as time goes on.

Extortion is what ALPA does because it is not accountable to the line pilot. USAPA will not do that, because they are directly accountable to the line pilot.

 

[Bear96]

This could go on forever without any resolution.

What is a solution acceptable to both groups?

There isn't one, as long as East refuses to budge one inch from DOH.

That's why it was submitted to BINDING arbitration.

 

[prechilill]

There isn't one, as long as East refuses to budge one inch from DOH.

That's why it was submitted to BINDING arbitration.

The east pilot's union gets an A+ for stalling and delaying any sort of progress for the pilot group and airline as a whole. I think Bear you probably know better where this goes from here because obviously any events looking forward will involve J.D.'s and the courts. Neither USAir East ALPA nor USAPA have offered any solutions other than demands of complete capitulation for everything the America West pilots have worked for through the mutually-agreed arbitration process.

 

[luvn737s]

Why is it you can't seem to figure out the USAPA leadership is not connected to the current MEC? Your continued efforts to tie the two together seems very odd as it pertains to your particular argument.

Jack Stephan has yet to even utter the word U-SAPs, either out of fear or revererance. The U-SAPs equivalent of leadership has never spoken a critcal word of Council 41 or the AAA MEC, knowing that if that puppet regime were to go away, U-SAPs might have to really deliver something, and it is becoming more obvious every day that they are ill prepared to ever do that.

Lorenzo debuted the alter-ego airline to try and destroy the piloting profession. U-SAPs has learned well: the alter ego MEC.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Jack Stephan has yet to even utter the word U-SAPs, either out of fear or revererance. The U-SAPs equivalent of leadership has never spoken a critcal word of Council 41 or the AAA MEC, knowing that if that puppet regime were to go away, U-SAPs might have to really deliver something, and it is becoming more obvious every day that they are ill prepared to ever do that.

Lorenzo debuted the alter-ego airline to try and destroy the piloting profession. U-SAPs has learned well: the alter ego MEC.

I'll bet you don't play chess, or if you do you are not very good at it. You confuse tactics with strategy. This process may have high stakes, but it is a game in many ways.

 

[Low&away]

I really think they are trying to get rid of us. Put the guy most disliked to defend ALPA, yep....makes sense to me

National is clueless! Putting the weakest most singularly destructive MEC as advocate for ALPA exemplifies why we are where we are. Six months after our DB was handed over to the PBGC it was over funded. Ratification was promised then taken away in the night.. Unforgivable... And for those of you who believe Pollock saved us you too are also clueless. PBGC lump sum pay outs would have far exceeded what a person could saved over a 8 year period. Saving our jobs as some believed was putting the cart well ahead of the horse. The cash that belonged to the pilots of USAirways far exceeded the value of our jobs collectively. In short, a cash rich association -ALPA- said not a word about the potential loss of our pension. And the final safety valve - membership vote- was removed by Pollock and friends. Didn't mean to go off on that but ALPA is a not what it once was. ALPA is a myth unless you feed at the trough.

 

[sharktooth]

There isn't one, as long as East refuses to budge one inch from DOH.

That's why it was submitted to BINDING arbitration.

You consistently forget to add to DOH the phrase "with conditions and restrictions". This is a well-known and historic method of bringing equity to unequal, in this case, seniority/career expectations. Your oversimplification serves as a demon for non-thinkers to focus upon and as a false beginning point for otherwise logical thought.

For instance. A base and /or position fence for five or more (conditional on age 65) would have eliminated any concerns of losing job expectations. Since the west MEC chose to bet the west careers without the protection of fences of any kind, nearly all flying is going to the higher yield east operation. Would that not be a wake up call to a westie? Are you pilots paying attention?

The west pilots still have a chance of pulling their chestnuts out of the fire and that will only occur if a different union takes over, negotiates a strong CBA under DOH with conditions and restrictions. That would allow the company to place their flying where they think they need it without any denigration of any pilots expectations. On the other hand, ALPA will only weaken US.

As well, should the ALPA "nic" fairy tale go forward, we can see how well an aircraft flys at FL200 with gear, etc. and so on. Demanding the status, each flight, for any MELs/inspection items is always a great time waster, under the "new", money-saving, Spectre. Simply demanding a head vs ticket count equals zero saved US at least one $10,000 fine, despite the VP for flight ordering the captain to take off anyway. Kudos to the captain for standing his ground.

Fly safe, by the rules and don't let some management tell you, in effect, "hold my beer and watch this". As one superb pilot management type told me, sometimes it is safer for the entire pilot group that some "pretend pilots" should remain in management. I see a large part of the "ACPC" group that could be in management.........

 

[EastUS]

The east pilot's union gets an A+ for stalling and delaying any sort of progress for the pilot group and airline as a whole. I think Bear you probably know better where this goes from here because obviously any events looking forward will involve J.D.'s and the courts. Neither USAir East ALPA nor USAPA have offered any solutions other than demands of complete capitulation for everything the America West pilots have worked for through the mutually-agreed arbitration process.

"everything the America West pilots have worked for through the mutually-agreed arbitration process." I think I better understand your apparent confusion now = You consider some bizarre product of an Alpo "process", and a whimsical arbitration result to equate to something you've somehow earned via "everything the America West pilots have worked for". Interesting mind set. Were all the AWA folks sitting with you few at some Alpo table while you managed to conceive this astonishing debacle?...or, was it a select handfull of Alpoid "I'm smart..just ask me" types that birthed this monster to the detriment of all concerned?

"I think Bear you probably know better where this goes from here.." An Alpoid response of predictable banality = "We're helpless, and the lawyers must know best"

I see zero rational hope for ever achieving any resolution whilst Alpoids are at the helm. You guys have managed far too many massive iceberg impacts thus far..and your evident "plan" is to turn the ship's helm over to the nearest lawyer? So much for any/all Alpo navigational skills then.

A point that I've minor curiosity on: "The east pilot's union gets an A+ for stalling and delaying..." isn't "The east pilot's union" currently Alpa?..and; isn't that also the west pilots' union as well?.. = yours? USAPA has not the slightest authority at any level as yet. The mess, or, should I say "process" that you're referencing's entirely Alpa's doing. The very fact that two groups within Alpa can find themselves in such a protracted deadlock puts to rest any residual fantasies about Alpo being any "union".