USAPA Files

[Bear96]

Ummm...so you offer that military experience, relevant experience is of value?= OK. Just drop a casual, legal genius/etc one-liner as to why anyone with the same, and many years of commercial experience as well (see listings under many of our furloughed folk) should, in the real world, be placed below some 3 month wonder from AWA that found a ticket in the bottom of a box of cereal. I'm all ears on this one.....

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here. As I said, I am neutral on whether military experience should count towards airline time. I can see both sides of the issue.

But I seem to recall many posts over the past few months ridiculing West pilots for only having low flight time and perhaps (relatively) recently having to get that time by flying pimply-faced teenagers around the pattern in a C-170 doing endless touch-and-goes, while the God-like East pilots were oh-so-superior flying their big jets into LGA or DCA with a strong crosswind in a blizzard with three engines out and minimum fuel during the same time period.

So which is it. Should seniority = experience, or not? Or is it only experience that East pilots happen to have should count, while "other" experience "isn't the same thing."

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I see. When it is East vs. West, total flying experience is all that should count for bidding, vacation, travel, etc. But when it is East vs. someone else with perhaps more total flying experience, maybe that total flying experience shouldn't count for quite as much.

I don't know what your point is here, but then again, you're a lawyer. Your statement is probably a rip at me, but I don't even know what you're trying to say. My stand is that "seniority" is what you earn by working for the company. Period. It is LONGEVITY only. Now, if the company wants or needs to hire from other companies, the military or whatever, they should have that right, along with the ability to offer people some kind of premium for their experience. Just like other industries do. If a law firm needed your expertise (which appears to me to be lots of experience at pilot web boards) and saw the need to hire you, they would likely offer you something to leave your old place of employment, or to choose working there over somewhere else. The same should go for airlines. If the company wanted to hire Air Force or Navy pilots with a lot of heavy international time, they should be able to, without starting them at first year pay. For system bids, vacation, monthly bids, travel etc, then only company seniority should be considered, since these are the benefits earned for making the comapny successful (a relative term, of course). This is they way it works now with the travel benefits between East and West. If you're going to have a system, and you're going to call it "seniority", then it ought to have something to do with seniority. That's my point.

Bear, you do seem to be rather biased towards the West group. Just what is your connection with them?

 

[EastUS]

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here. As I said, I am neutral on whether military experience should count towards airline time. I can see both sides of the issue.

But I seem to recall many posts over the past few months ridiculing West pilots for only having low flight time and perhaps (relatively) recently having to get that time by flying pimply-faced teenagers around the pattern in a C-170 doing endless touch-and-goes, while the God-like East pilots were oh-so-superior flying their big jets into LGA or DCA with a strong crosswind in a blizzard with three engines out and minimum fuel during the same time period.

So which is it. Should seniority = experience, or not? Or is it only experience that East pilots happen to have should count, while "other" experience "isn't the same thing."

Umm..as for my thinking, was this just too tough for you to read and digest? =

"maybe that total flying experience shouldn't count for quite as much." Actually?..In a perfect world?: I'd be completely fine with such "total flying experience" ruling the day. That idea makes perfect sense to me."

"Are you just stirring the pot here?..or; are you even attempting to foolishly suggest that the west could, on ANY possible basis..... argue their position based on REAL "seniority"/experience?...Puh-leaze" You simply cannot be that utterly uninformed, nor hopelessly clueless.


"If you're not arguing purely to argue, nor have any "west is best" bias..well?...you've got me hopelessly lost trying to figure out your "thinking", or reasons for even being on these threads."

Bear: " which is it. Should seniority = experience, or not?" Aww gee..lemme think...I'll go with experience = YES: What's your "point"? Is there some secret "National Treasure" stash of experience out west that none of us have yet been made aware of? Hey!..If they've got the flight time/work years/etc,..(hell..I'll settle for even equal flight time with those that they'd cheerfully, and immediately displace),). Perhaps they're but nature's nobles, and are just being shy about their vast experience..yes..that must be it...well..whew!..I feel better now with Nic, and I'll sign off on it immediately

 

[prechilill]

Not at all. However, I don't have any tolerance for hypocrites. And for the past few months we have seen endless posts from the East pilots about how West pilots don't "deserve" the Nic award because they have so little experience compared to the almighty experienced East pilots, and that that experience should be honored with DOH/longevity seniority (even though without the merger East pilots would have been on the unemployment line).

So if you think total experience flying airplanes is the be-all and end-all of where one should end up on the seniority list, it seems to me you should also think ALL experience flying airplanes should count. No?

Bear, your posts are perhaps confusing to a few simpletons around here who think in one dimension only. The rest of us objectively understand your points made in your posts and they are well articulated and crystal clear. It seems another wise-owl who has since retired understands the futility of exchanging ideas with a myopic, chronically-angry select group of indiviuals around here.

 

[Low&away]

Probably more likely a takeover target in the upcoming consolidation games at best... If we are represented by USAPA then I'm sure ALPA will do everything in their power to see that integration goes badly for us. Frankly, I'll be laughing myself silly in knowing the east cut off their nose to spite their face... Some people cannot seem to learn to curb their emotions... Oh well.

Based on your post I infer that ALPA has some mystical power that trumps Labor Law. Its not going to happen but hypothetically imagine a SWA UAL combination? Do you think SWA has less legal standing than UAL because UAL is ALPA. SWA would actually have an advantage because they would not have to follow ALPA merger policy. ALPA merger policy is a toothless policy which essentially says, play nice. So far no harm no foul. But the teeth eventually shine because ALPA only enforces the outcome. They will not enforce the process. ALPA's own words - Windfall is in the eye of the beholder. A non ALPA affiliated union has as much or possibly a better chance to reach a reasonable outcome because in the real world windfall has a definition.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

.........confusing to a few simpletons around here who think in one dimension only.......... It seems another wise-owl who has since retired understands the futility of exchanging ideas with a myopic, chronically-angry select group of indiviuals around here.

OK enlightened one. How about our myopic view vs. your myopic view. Neither one is acceptable to the other.

Your side wants a JNC contract with the Nic award intact. Your side wants to use money as the incentive to offset all the vagaries associated to the award. Your side believes in the ALPA process. Your side thinks that will solve everything.

My side will not accept any JNC contract with Nic attached to it. My side believes in seniority over money. My side is trying to remove all things ALPA and also believes the ALPA touchy feely process will not solve anything.

In a nutshell, does that about sum it up? So where do you propose we go from here?

IMO. Both sides are polarized and frozen in their respective positions. The only way to move out of each corner is compromise. Neither side will do that under ALPA proposals(?) The DEN meeting produced what? Our MEC hasn't said diddly squat other than "we opened a dialog." So in my mind nothing has changed. Nothing is ever going to change with ALPA and Prater.

In the meantime the stalemate breaker i.e. USAPA marches on. I am sure Doug and Zoomie don't give a hoot who they negotiate with. So long as they get a combined contract. If USAPA is elected then, IMO, Doug and Zoomie will walk away from ALPA's TA for merging. USAPA will craft a new TA and begin the negotiating process for both groups. Your participation or lack thereof will help determine the direction of negotiations. Finally, USAPA negotiates a new contract. All is well with Doug and Zoomie. So the longer both MEC's fight it out, the closer they are to being replaced.

Without going into he said, she said, you agreed to, and all the polarizing accusations from both sides, I would like for you to propose a solution under ALPA. So long as it does not involve what I said above. Please don't bring up agreed to, or mandated arbitration. (See above, my side) The JNC still wouldn't fly if you do.

Maybe my "angry simpleton" mind can figure out what you have as a proposal. Just don't rehash the same thing we have been hearing all summer. It hasn't worked then and it still won't work now. Looking forward to what you have to say.

 

[fr8tmastr]

Its all very simple to me. Anyone on the East is a complete imbicile, with no grasp of reality and additionally they are all crazy.

The West on the other hand are completely 100% correct on all subject matters open for discussion, and anyone with any kind of grey matter what so ever could clearly see this.

If you think this post is off base just reread some of the popular East and West posters. The East is saying, "Nic. is wrong we have to find away around it, and we have had enough of ALPA".

The West is saying "you are all idiots for even questioning ALPA, and all you want to do is hose the West"

Question for the West. Do any of you think ANY of the points the East pilots make have any validity at all, or do you really believe that 3000+ pilots have all lost their minds? This question really goes to the heart of this post The West is 100% correct and the East is 100% wrong.

 

[luvn737s]

Its all very simple to me. Anyone on the East is a complete imbicile, with no grasp of reality and additionally they are all crazy.

The West on the other hand are completely 100% correct on all subject matters open for discussion, and anyone with any kind of grey matter what so ever could clearly see this.

If you think this post is off base just reread some of the popular East and West posters. The East is saying, "Nic. is wrong we have to find away around it, and we have had enough of ALPA".

The West is saying "you are all idiots for even questioning ALPA, and all you want to do is hose the West"

Question for the West. Do any of you think ANY of the points the East pilots make have any validity at all, or do you really believe that 3000+ pilots have all lost their minds? This question really goes to the heart of this post The West is 100% correct and the East is 100% wrong.

The west followed all the protocols for negotiating and arbitrating a seniority integration. To that extent they are 100% in compliance with the ground rules as set out.

The U-SAPs have hit on the perfect mixture of low morale and a leadership vacuum from both ALPA and management, to stoke the pilots into wanting to capture some sort of victory, no matter how Pyrrhic. They aren't necessarily wrong for not wanting to lose anything more than they've already lost. Where they are wrong is channelling their anger into trying to overturn an arbitrated decision. They chose to stick to an unreasonable goal and the end result is Nicolau. Now they are extorting mercy from the west, by threatening to scuttle the negotiating process by imposing a union that will further disenfranchise the west pilots. That is 100% wrong.

Beyond the negative effects of tampering with an arbitration on the west pilots, the entire arbitration process as a means of solving intra-union disputes is at risk.

Because the disparity in average longevity made a straight DOH integration a de-facto staple for the west, the arbitrator felt that aside from the wide-body flying, if you were at the the top of the list on one side, you'd be close to the top of the combined list, and if you were at the bottom of one side, you'd be close to the bottom of the combined list and if you were furloughed, you were placed in line behind the flying pilots. This is a reasonable solution and one the west pilots support.

100% right or wrong is far too simplistic. It's a matter of following the pre-agreed upon rules and moving forward. The short term gains made buy the delays so far will come at a price in terms of comraderie and labor unity in the future.

 

[luvn737s]

Without going into he said, she said, you agreed to, and all the polarizing accusations from both sides, I would like for you to propose a solution under ALPA. So long as it does not involve what I said above. Please don't bring up agreed to, or mandated arbitration. (See above, my side) The JNC still wouldn't fly if you do.

How can you preface a solution by ignoring the previously agreed-to ground rules? Who would agree to a solution that rewards extortion?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

How can you preface a solution by ignoring the previously agreed-to ground rules? Who would agree to a solution that rewards extortion?

I pointed out that it's not working, as is. It's never going to work under ALPA, as is. Therefore, you must be fine with how things are going to conclude, as is. Extortion or not, ALPA's ground rules or not, we're not anywhere closer to an agreement than ever before. If anything we're farther apart.

If you want to rehash everything, accuse all with the same crap as is, and really not provide some kind of solution looking forward. Then so be it. Oh well.

 

[Freighterguynow]

The short term gains made buy the delays so far will come at a price in terms of comraderie and labor unity in the future.

Putting 17 year pilots junior to new hires has ended any hope of that.

 

[prechilill]

Maybe my "angry simpleton" mind can figure out what you have as a proposal. Just don't rehash the same thing we have been hearing all summer. It hasn't worked then and it still won't work now. Looking forward to what you have to say.

For being fifty-something with such a distinguished flying career at an ALPA carrier you seem quite removed of your own union's merger policy. The solution has been calculated and two independent MEC's have commented on the fairness for all in this decision. The pilot neutral your group chose as well as the arbitrator your group chose came up with this fair decision. It is your right to believe otherwise. However, one day you will figure out why the rest of the piloting profession is looking at your antics with subtle disdain. I do not think you or your angry brethren can logically figure much out on your own at this point. In my view logic will never prevail over bitterness fertilized from years of career stagnation. Peace, and Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[TechBoy]

I pointed out that it's not working, as is. It's never going to work under ALPA, as is. Therefore, you must be fine with how things are going to conclude, as is. Extortion or not, ALPA's ground rules or not, we're not anywhere closer to an agreement than ever before. If anything we're farther apart.

If you want to rehash everything, accuse all with the same crap as is, and really not provide some kind of solution looking forward. Then so be it. Oh well.

OK. It's clear to all the the East will not vote in any agreement that implements the Nic Award whether under ALPA or a successor. You've made it clear that you will have that forced down your throat. Fine.

So then your solution, as far as I can tell, is to have USAPA take over and force the opposite solution down the throats of the West pilots. Or am I missing something on USAPA's view of seniority integration? Or does USAPA have some magic pixie dust that will make everyone change their views?

I can understand why some might prefer an in-house union to a national union. But I don't see how it does anything to bring a solution forward.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

For being fifty-something with such a distinguished flying career at an ALPA carrier you seem quite removed of your own union's merger policy. The solution has been calculated and two independent MEC's have commented on the fairness for all in this decision. The pilot neutral your group chose as well as the arbitrator your group chose came up with this fair decision. It is your right to believe otherwise. However, one day you will figure out why the rest of the piloting profession is looking at your antics with subtle disdain. I do not think you or your angry brethren can logically figure much out on your own at this point. In my view logic will never prevail over bitterness fertilized from years of career stagnation. Peace, and Happy Thanksgiving.

Thanks for rehashing the same old crap. If you have an original thought in your head on how to break the deadlock. I am still awaiting any kind of logical response. Like I said, what's in the past and present isn't working. The future is USAPA. Therefore, if you want to break the deadlock I would start proposing something new.

But if you want to stand and fall with ALPA "as is", that is your choice. I was asked to put myself in your shoes for a moment. I was asked to see how it feels to be in the so called "cross hairs". If you don't like it, then propose something looking forward that is acceptable to all. If you can't and want to rely on ALPA then so be it. The way things are going, ALPA doesn't have a clue on how to solve this mess or the upcoming representation election anyway.

As for merger policy or "guidelines", we have a difference of opinion on what and when policy is applied and applicable.

 

[nycbusdriver]

However, one day you will figure out why the rest of the piloting profession is looking at your antics with subtle disdain

And one day you will figure out why the USAirways east pilots don't give a rat's patootie how the rest of the piloting profession is looking at our "antics," as you call it. We've decided that we've been to the bottom already, and will not go any lower no matter WHAT ANYONE THINKS! Over the years ALPA and rotten management have backed us us into a corner like a tired, hungry wolf. Now that the wolf has turned and begun to snarl at you, you are somehow surprised to see fangs?