USAPA Files

[NYGiantsFan90]

http://usairlinepilots.org/Seham_seniority...tion_issues.htm

Here's a legal opinion from the USAPA law firm. Granted, a legal opinion is just that. However, I put a lot more stock in what this law firm has to say about labor law than anyone on these forums who claims to be a lawyer. This is the firm that represented the American Airlines pilots when they bolted from ALPA in the early 1960's, so they've been around awhile.

Bear, if you care to refute this as a "lawyer," put it on your letterhead under your signature. Then I will give your opinion some weight. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, you're just another 15 year old aviation fan with too much time on his/her hands.

I hope you know that Seham is also an anti-union law firm, they represented Alitalia and El Al against the IAM and other unions during a lockout.

They are also responsible for no status quo applying to a newly organized group when they represented AMFA against ACA.

I find it hard to believe any union would hire a firm that representes companies against unions.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Unions destroyed that precept a long time ago on their own by not negotiating a national seniority system, which I presume from your post you would support?

So when the TWA guys got laid off at AA, if they got hired by U you would have supported them bringing over their "pure" TW seniority?

If an ex-military pilot with ten years' flying experience in the USAF gets hired by LCC, s/he should start with ten years' seniority?

1) Yes
2) Sort of, see item #3
3)Sort of. The company should be able to offer a premium, like maybe start at 10 year pay, or even direct hire captains, for certain levels of experience earned elsewhere. The "seniority" issue is not as clear, as I believe that folks should earn some of the benefits of seniority, like increased vacation, better schedules, travel benefits, etc through service to the company. This is the way it works in most industries, it should work that way at the airlines as well.

Here's another novel concept. I think that USAPA should reorder the seniority list to give FULL CREDIT to folks that were unjustly denied it during past mergers, like the Empire pilots, Shuttle pilots and all the others. That would go a long way to righting some of ALPA's wrongs.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I hope you know that Seham is also an anti-union law firm, they represented Alitalia and El Al against the IAM and other unions during a lockout.

They are also responsible for no status quo applying to a newly organized group when they represented AMFA against ACA.

I find it hard to believe any union would hire a firm that representes companies against unions.

Sounds to me like a law firm which specializes in labor issues. That's a good thing. Lawyers, just like everyone else, work for the people that pay them. I hope that they have good enough ethics to take the USAPA case because they believe it is a good one, but I know that "money makes the world go around".

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Unions destroyed that precept a long time ago on their own by not negotiating a national seniority system, which I presume from your post you would support?

So when the TWA guys got laid off at AA, if they got hired by U you would have supported them bringing over their "pure" TW seniority?

If an ex-military pilot with ten years' flying experience in the USAF gets hired by LCC, s/he should start with ten years' seniority?

Unions, long time ago? I am assuming you mean ALPA? The way ALPA is structured now, there is no chance of that ever happening. The successful carriers now would say no, the weak ones yes. As the pendulum swings, so goes perceptions. ALPA had its chance and failed, many years ago.

Not "TW seniority", ALPA seniority, based on DOH/LOS. But since that didn't happen and never will, oh well, it is what it is.

Military? Your joking right? By default you suggested the military pilots are union members. i.e. ALPA? The absurdity of that statement only suggests your now anti union sentiments. You may be a so called attorney, if so, I think I now see which side your firm is on, and its not pro union. Unless of course you're here just to stir up additional issues among union pilots as a so called legal expert.

Since we're heading off toward the absurd, why not base it on first flight lesson? Want to learn to fly? Have to join ALPA first? Just pay your dues and you to can become a pilot.

 

[Phoenix]

My sincerest congratulations to the volunteers of USAPA who have recognized the need of the pilots to have a representational agent and are doing the work without flight pay loss or fillet mignon. Some don't get it and would rather sell peace bouquets and "Just Be Nice" bumper stickers to people who have dug trenches deeper than the Germans and Allied powers on the Western Front. Everybody now.. "all we are saying, is give peace a chance." "Just believe and wood stock will live again." That approach is untenable, has failed, and is doomed to continue failing regardless of how much perfume and lipstick is rubbed in. "Weekend at Bernie's" wasn't real.

Many thanks to the volunteers who have an approach that chooses to move past propping up a hollow tree. It had its day but sadly it has outdated itself and now pilots from across the airline and seniority list can expect a method of resolution. Each of the volunteers can be proud of their contributions and know that they have the respect and support of over 3,000 of their fellow pilots.

PHX

 

[Bear96]

Military? Your joking right? By default you suggested the military pilots are union members. i.e. ALPA? The absurdity of that statement only suggests your now anti union sentiments.

Perhaps you should have read the post to which I was responding, which talked about seniority reflecting relevant experience as opposed to simply length of time as a union member:

I believe that not only ALPA, but unions in general should be adamantly against the NIC award, as it basically destroys the union precept that experience, in this case in the form of pure seniority, is not an asset.

Apparently you think that military flying is not "experience" or an asset to the civilian airline world. I am not sure I would agree.

And I suppose in your world, if union membership is all that should matter for seniority purposes, if a unionized mechanic gets hired as a pilot by LCC, all his years as an IAM / AMFA / whatever member should count for his pilot bidding seniority? Again, I am not sure I would agree.

Unions, long time ago? I am assuming you mean ALPA? The way ALPA is structured now, there is no chance of that ever happening. The successful carriers now would say no, the weak ones yes. As the pendulum swings, so goes perceptions. ALPA had its chance and failed, many years ago.

I hate to bring some reality into your world, but ALPA isn't the only union that does not have a concept of national craft seniority. In any union I can think of (maybe there is an exeption or two out there somewhere), you start at the bottom of the barrel when you change employers, even if you do the exact same job.

But don't let me get in the way of your enjoyment in demonizing ALPA. I see that is all that keeps you guys going these days.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I believe that not only ALPA, but unions in general should be adamantly against the NIC award, as it basically destroys the union precept that experience, in this case in the form of pure seniority, is not an asset

Blending quotes in the middle of a reply and attributing it to me? Nice try.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Apparently you think that military flying is not "experience" or an asset to the civilian airline world. I am not sure I would agree.

In your world you wouldn't. So far you have totally missed the point of a national seniority list, so up the ante and bring in military pilots. It's their experience and training that qualify them to fly civilian airliners. Quite well I might add. As non union members that experience and training does not allow them to leapfrog in a local union seniority list.

And I suppose in your world, if union membership is all that should matter for seniority purposes, if a unionized mechanic gets hired as a pilot by LCC, all his years as an IAM / AMFA / whatever member should count for his pilot bidding seniority? Again, I am not sure I would agree.

Once again you have missed the point and upped the ante. Why not bring in the Dishwashers of America? This is and always was about a National ALPA Seniority List. Not a National Union List for Employment.

I hate to bring some reality into your world, but ALPA isn't the only union that does not have a concept of national craft seniority. In any union I can think of (maybe there is an exeption or two out there somewhere), you start at the bottom of the barrel when you change employers, even if you do the exact same job.

Don't I know it? Reality? It is was it is. But hindsight is 20/20. Maybe back then I would have opposed a National List also. But it's way past to late to start one now. So your argument about the "TW" and "military" is and always will be pointless as it pertains to a local seniority list.

But don't let me get in the way of your enjoyment in demonizing ALPA. I see that is all that keeps you guys going these days.

It's not enjoyment. It's something that should have been done a long time ago. Either ALPA is a union or its not. Lately, its been shown to be a money pit. A paper tiger if you will. More like a lobbying group claiming to represent pilots. Maybe ALPA can survive in its present form but I doubt it. Sometimes starting over is not such a bad thing if you can continue in perpetuity.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Blending quotes in the middle of a reply and attributing it to me? Nice try.

She got the quote from me, and it's not what I said either. Read my next post. I think the company should be able to offer some kind of compensation or premium for experience earned elsewhere, just as engineers and scientists are frequently started at other than new hire pay in industry. Just what that would be would be something for the company to decide. Not all military pilots gain the same kinds of experience, and some is more applicable to a part 121 carrier than others. That would NOT mean that the person's "seniority" for vacation, travel and other benefits would be prorated as well, since that is earned for service with the company or it's predecessors. I'm an ex military pilot myself, so I know how valuable the experiences can be, and I believe that any company would do well to hire military pilots, even if there is a premium for them to do so.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

She got the quote from me, and it's not what I said either.

I'm not sure what her agenda is. But she always seems to be anti east anything. Followed by always upping the ante when her argument doesn't wash. Didn't want to re quote all of what you posted,. I have the utmost respect for our military pilots. So to you sir, Thank You!!

 

[KTM300]

BEAR96 saidSo when the TWA guys got laid off at AA, if they got hired by U you would have supported them bringing over their "pure" TW seniority?

If an ex-military pilot with ten years' flying experience in the USAF gets hired by LCC, s/he should start with ten years' seniority?
[/quote]

Bear, Forgive me for saying this...but you sound like an idiot. What is it you are trying to proof? You just seem to be grasping for any straw you can, but you lost your credibility.

I would not take any time away from a guy that flew in the military. Just like the commercial says, 'It's an adventure.' It is also good experience, but so is flight instructing and flying bank checks and night freight or corporate. What you seem to be implying is anyone with a commercial pilot certificate should be on a national seniority list. Frankly, if that is what you are implying, then my hat off to you for thinking about what ALPA should have done along time ago. If in fact ALPA had acted more like a union, and thought more like a union, commercial Airline pilots would not be making the piss poor wages we make, and working till we are fatigued. ALPA should have been more involved in a pilots career, from obtaining an ATP certificate till the end of his career. The problem is, "ALPA", and now, it is too late for them. Unfortunately, ALPA is to stupid to understand how to become a more powerful organization. They have, through their own ineptness, allowed the Airline executives to have too much control of the industry.

Just out of curiosity, is the 96 in your name the year you were hired?

 

[Bear96]

What you seem to be implying is anyone with a commercial pilot certificate should be on a national seniority list.

Not at all. However, I don't have any tolerance for hypocrites. And for the past few months we have seen endless posts from the East pilots about how West pilots don't "deserve" the Nic award because they have so little experience compared to the almighty experienced East pilots, and that that experience should be honored with DOH/longevity seniority (even though without the merger East pilots would have been on the unemployment line).

So if you think total experience flying airplanes is the be-all and end-all of where one should end up on the seniority list, it seems to me you should also think ALL experience flying airplanes should count. No?

Or perhaps the "EXPERIENCE IS EVERYTHING!" line is only applicable when it is convenient?

Here's another inconsistency in some of the recent posts. Suddenly the rationale for not counting the experience of military pilots is, "That isn't ALPA." OK, since ALPA is the devil incarnate and stands for all that is wrong with the industry and is worthless, etc., etc., once USAPA is formed, I would assume ALPA shouldn't count for anything. So all LCC pilots would have a seniority date of whenever USAPA becomes the LCC pilots' bargaining agent, no? That would be fun for the next merger -- all LCC pilots would have a seniority date of 2008!

 

[Bear96]

I think the company should be able to offer some kind of compensation or premium for experience earned elsewhere, just as engineers and scientists are frequently started at other than new hire pay in industry. Just what that would be would be something for the company to decide. Not all military pilots gain the same kinds of experience, and some is more applicable to a part 121 carrier than others. That would NOT mean that the person's "seniority" for vacation, travel and other benefits would be prorated as well, since that is earned for service with the company or it's predecessors.

I see. When it is East vs. West, total flying experience is all that should count for bidding, vacation, travel, etc. But when it is East vs. someone else with perhaps more total flying experience, maybe that total flying experience shouldn't count for quite as much.

 

[EastUS]

Perhaps you should have read the post to which I was responding, which talked about seniority reflecting relevant experience as opposed to simply length of time as a union member:



Apparently you think that military flying is not "experience" or an asset to the civilian airline world. I am not sure I would agree.

Ummm...so you offer that military experience, relevant experience is of value? = OK. Just drop a casual, legal genius/etc one-liner as to why anyone with the same, and many years of commercial experience as well (see listings under many of our furloughed folk) should, in the real world, be placed below some 3 month wonder from AWA that found a ticket in the bottom of a box of cereal. I'm all ears on this one.....

"maybe that total flying experience shouldn't count for quite as much." Actually?..In a perfect world?: I'd be completely fine with such "total flying experience" ruling the day. That idea makes perfect sense to me. Nothing of the sort would ever "sell" though. It's a given that one forsakes such when running away to join the civilian circus... Just consider all the wholesale tap dancing, screaming and squirming, that would only come from the west, (scratch that= IS coming from the west) or any other inappropriately narcicisstic group, intent upon seeking personal gain at whatever moral cost, when up against experience. Are you just stirring the pot here?..or; are you even attempting to foolishly suggest that the west could, on ANY possible basis..... argue their position based on REAL "seniority"/experience?...Puh-leaze

If you're not arguing purely to argue, nor have any "west is best" bias..well?...you've got me hopelessly lost trying to figure out your "thinking", or reasons for being on these threads.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I see. When it is East vs. West, total flying experience is all that should count for bidding, vacation, travel, etc. But when it is East vs. someone else with perhaps more total flying experience, maybe that total flying experience shouldn't count for quite as much.

This sub thread started out as a debate on a National Seniority list and I think you were trying to get a feel for how USAPA supporters would react to it. When you didn't get what you wanted, you just kept adding to it. Why is that?

So now you continue with this diatribe of east vs. west. Anti union and now anti pilot. Why don't you give it up? You argue like my wife. Next thing, you will probably bring something up that an east pilot perpetrated on you or a friend 20 years ago. What a waste of time. I used to think you had some amount of credibility.

At least I know your agenda. Thanks.