USAPA Files

[luvn737s]

U-SAPs has no plan to lead. Once the inital ether of retribution against ALPA is burned up, they'll look out at 6000 angry pilots who are expecting leadership and finding none. Maybe if the personalities involved in U-SAPs were different and could present a case for the west that they can provide superior leadership with the Nicolau decision in place and implemented, U-SAPs would have a snowballs chance of success. But they rely on inciting anger towards ____________(pick the group of choice) and their symbiotic relationship with the AAA MEC and when both of those go away U-SAPs will be seen for the empty suit it really is.

 

[luvn737s]

What part of seeing ALPA voted off the property don't you seem to understand? Or is this some kind of test to see my/our resolve?

It's funnier when Cartman says, "Respect my authoriti!!!!"

 

[AAA73Pilot]

...............symbiotic relationship with the AAA MEC and when both of those go away U-SAPs will be seen for the empty suit it really is.

I really do wish you would get out of your broken record diatribes. To propose any kind of relationship with the current MEC leaders is beyond absurd. As for the empty suit? Pure conjecture on your part. lets face it, you're really just throwing out any and all reasons to derail the decert effort. Not going to happen, but you can keep trying if you want. Everything done has been above board and legal.

What are your questions. If I don't have the answer I will certainly try to find it for you. Unless it has already been answered before on the forum.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

It's funnier when Cartman says, "Respect my authoriti!!!!"

Hey now, I like ole Eric. He's my hero. "Bad tree snake, bad!!" Just insert ALPA for tree snake and you know how I feel

 

[BoeingBoy]

What's your alternative then? Stay with ALPA? Sorry not going to happen. Just because our unity finally surfaced after all these years, why is it that you can't understand that?

I fully understand that "our" refers to the East pilot group. I also understand that some of your posts come across as being incredulous that all the West pilots aren't jumping on the USAPA bandwagon. Perhaps you're blinded by your sincerely held view that it's about better representation and not the Nic award, but many on the East side don't seem to share that view - why do you think that the award, after all the concessions and pension loss, was the single event that created such unity among the East pilots and the impetus for USAPA? Hopes to undo or "moot" the award, maybe? You must see that the West group would see that as nothing but an attack on them? That's what you apparently don't understand.

It has been there since day 1. So once again, what is your point?

I had no point other than to reply to a question someone asked - "Does the USAPA feel the Nic award will be oveturned as a result of decertifying ALPA, and if so, what precedent does it base that expectation upon?" You seem a little defensive over nothing more than posting quotes from the public portion of the USAPA website.

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

It's funnier when Cartman says, "Respect my authoriti!!!!"

In prison, a guy like you was my favorite. Know it all after four years guy.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I fully understand that "our" refers to the East pilot group.......... I also understand that some of your posts come across as being incredulous that all the West pilots aren't jumping on the USAPA bandwagon......... Perhaps you're blinded by your sincerely held view that it's about better representation and not the Nic award, but many on the East side don't seem to share that view......... - why do you think that the award, after all the concessions and pension loss, was the single event that created such unity among the East pilots and the impetus for USAPA? Hopes to undo or "moot" the award, maybe?............... You must see that the West group would see that as nothing but an attack on them? That's what you apparently don't understand.

There aren't any west volunteers in the public domain yet, hope we will get some in the future when the campaign begins in earnest, so how else could It be described? Except by "our"........ No, I don't expect all west pilots to jump on, just like some east pilots. But I do get a bit annoyed when I see a post starting out with "I don't worship ALPA" and the like detractors, then jump into a diatribe of anti USAPA sentiment. If you don't like USAPA, fine, so be it. But if you don't like ALPA either, but will support them anyway, yea, I can't understand that...........The single unifying event? IMO It is a basic tenet of unionism that is under attack.............I posted earlier they were not in "our" cross hairs, it may seem that way, but they are not. If you can think of a better single word for "our", let me know.

I had no point other than to reply to a question someone asked - "Does the USAPA feel the Nic award will be oveturned as a result of decertifying ALPA, and if so, what precedent does it base that expectation upon?" You seem a little defensive over nothing more than posting quotes from the public portion of the USAPA website.

Maybe so, I had to go back and see who asked the question. I apologize. I assumed it was directed at me and will try to be more careful in the future.

 

[Elevation]

Have a nice snooze, Mr. Van Winkle?

sorry I don't hang out here all day, what are you saying exactly? My point was, why haven't there been recalls at the East MEC if they are screwing everything up? Seems like the place to start?

 

[BoeingBoy]

But I do get a bit annoyed when I see a post starting out with "I don't worship ALPA" and the like detractors, then jump into a diatribe of anti USAPA sentiment.

You have to see it from their viewpoit - hard, I know. I don't think many of the West pilots are necessarily holding ALPA up as perfection, but I can certainly see how they could view USAPA as worse than ALPA at this point. Look at it this way - if you had to choose between a mugger stealing your wallet or a murderer taking your life, which would you choose? The mugger? Would that mean you supported the mugger and thought his actions were entirely proper? Or would it mean that you just saw the mugger as the better of the two choices. That's sorta how I see the West position.

Of course, you see ALPA as the mugger who's robbed you over and over while USAPA is the policeman that stops him from ever stealing your wallet again. Human nature says you can't understand why the West folks don't see USAPA the same way - why do they want the policeman to go away unless they really like being mugged? Until you try to see it from their perspective.

It'll be hard - make that impossible - to convince the West folks that USAPA has their best interests in mind while one of the objectives of USAPA is to negate the award. Saying that the majority rules and the East has the majority just tells the West that USAPA will be run by and for East pilots - at least till the numbers change enough to shift control.

Jim

ps - don't worry about the "oops". I try to be a good boy and not always quote the post I'm replying to if it's immediately above. Problem is that by the time I get my answer prepared and hit "Submit", sometimes 2,3,4 intervening posts have shown up.

 

[EastUS]

As we've discussed before, there are definitely advantages to an in-house union. But one born of a desire to force the minority to bow to the majoriy isn't unifying, isn't representing all pilots, isn't what unionism is all about. You really should stop being "surprised" that the minority isn't clamoring to get behind such a union.

Jim

Curious sir: If you would care to do so: What's your definition of, and/or general ideas on "what unionism is all about"?

 

[nycbusdriver]

sorry I don't hang out here all day, what are you saying exactly? My point was, why haven't there been recalls at the East MEC if they are screwing everything up? Seems like the place to start?

Sorry for my poor attempt at humor.

Recalls will not solve the problem. The problem is ALPA itself, so even if the reps were all recalled and replaced, we would still have ALPA, i.e. the problem.

But I am constantly amazed that the CLT reps have not been recalled over the years, or at least an attempt made to do so. I think a lot of the CLT pilots are doing their own Van Winkle thing.

 

[nycbusdriver]

http://usairlinepilots.org/Seham_seniority...tion_issues.htm

Here's a legal opinion from the USAPA law firm. Granted, a legal opinion is just that. However, I put a lot more stock in what this law firm has to say about labor law than anyone on these forums who claims to be a lawyer. This is the firm that represented the American Airlines pilots when they bolted from ALPA in the early 1960's, so they've been around awhile.

Bear, if you care to refute this as a "lawyer," put it on your letterhead under your signature. Then I will give your opinion some weight. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, you're just another 15 year old aviation fan with too much time on his/her hands.

 

[Bear96]

http://usairlinepilots.org/Seham_seniority...tion_issues.htm

Here's a legal opinion from the USAPA law firm. Granted, a legal opinion is just that. However, I put a lot more stock in what this law firm has to say about labor law than anyone on these forums who claims to be a lawyer. This is the firm that represented the American Airlines pilots when they bolted from ALPA in the early 1960's, so they've been around awhile.

Bear, if you care to refute this as a "lawyer," put it on your letterhead under your signature. Then I will give your opinion some weight. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, you're just another 15 year old aviation fan with too much time on his/her hands.

All the letter says in very general terms is that a union can generally negotiate seniority issues with the company, and that DFR suits are generally unsuccessful. I agree with both of those points.

What is more important is what the (carefully crafted) letter doesn't say. The real question is not whether a union can negotiate seniority with a company when there are no other considerations to be mindful of (answer: yes; the letter says that much). Rather, the real question here is what is the effect of an arbitrated seniority list -- which essentially all pilots involved agreed to, through their elected representatives who agreed to binding arbitration to generate the list -- on a union's and company's general latitude and discretion to negotiate seniority.

You appear to believe that the arbitrated list can be ignored, even though all pilots (through their elected representatives) agreed to be bound by it and one party to the arbitration would presumably not want to change it through the type of negotiations envisioned in the letter. I am not so sure.

Notice the letter does not even attempt to address that very relevant and crucial issue. You should wonder why.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I disagree. I think that the letter addresses just that. It basically says that unions can reorder seniority lists, in the interest of "Labor Peace" in any way they want as long as it makes sense. It also said that any sort of permanence only runs until the next negotiation. The company uses this idea pretty regularly to inflict all sorts of pain on the employees, yet ALPA has been reluctant to employ it. The letter also makes the point that any sort of lawsuit from within ALPA which is against ALPA is fruitless, and that the only chance of coming up with any sort of sensible "seniority" list would be to do so as a majority without ALPA and it's "binding" ruling.

I believe that not only ALPA, but unions in general should be adamantly against the NIC award, as it basically destroys the union precept that experience, in this case in the form of pure seniority, is not an asset. This makes the entire idea of graduating pay scales to higher levels for time on the property a fallacy. If I were Corporate America, I'd be jumping on this with both feet. Why pay experienced employees more when their own union says it isn't worthwhile?

 

[Bear96]

I believe that not only ALPA, but unions in general should be adamantly against the NIC award, as it basically destroys the union precept that experience, in this case in the form of pure seniority, is not an asset.

Unions destroyed that precept a long time ago on their own by not negotiating a national seniority system, which I presume from your post you would support?

So when the TWA guys got laid off at AA, if they got hired by U you would have supported them bringing over their "pure" TW seniority?

If an ex-military pilot with ten years' flying experience in the USAF gets hired by LCC, s/he should start with ten years' seniority?