USAPA Files

[sharktooth]

The usapa was established for one thing, to circumnavigate the Nic award, and you can't convince any westie otherwise.

Wrong and as far as convincing anyone, sometimes stupid is as stupid does. There are still those who believe the earth is flat and the world started 6000 years ago. Welcome to that rather insular group. That is why there is Darwin, to weed out the stupid.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

That's a flat out lie. If that was so, then why do your leaders promote DOH with any future contract proposals? Talk about feeding someone bs.

No it's not a lie. It's your perception. Just because our new unions proposal, to adhere to basic union principals for representing our pilots and one that you disagree with, does not make it BS. In our view DOH for mergers is a tenet to basic unionism. Seniority is everything. The rest can be negotiated.

The usapa was established for one thing, to circumnavigate the Nic award, and you can't convince any westie otherwise. We not fans of alpa neither, but you can't say this union will benefit both sides. I think your statement should've ended... "and things FOR THE EAST thusly change for the better"

Have posted and many others did the same, Nic was the final straw. If there was some other issue in your eyes more damning then bring it up. We have learned of many events / issues from the past that individually couldn't unite the east pilots. This one did as being the final attack on our careers. And by default, yours too. You don't see it that way, but it will become readily apparent as you age in this profession. To finally see ALPA for what it is has only deepened our resolve to see them gone.

In our view, I can say it will benefit all pilots as it sets the basic principals to continue with our careers. Apparently, we will always have a difference of opinion on what a union is and unionism in principal.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

No, it's pretty much just vengeance. If the USAPA koolaid drinkers didn't start with the battle cry of "overturn nic!", you might have a case. But they did. No matter how much catsup you put on it, it's still a turd sandwich. Thanks, but we'll pass.

Sorry for you, but it's not vengeance against the west, it's against ALPA and its flawed Constitution and ByLaws. To us it doesn't matter where we started, luckily the process of decertification has finally taken hold. Many of us have been waiting for this day. The arbitration was the final straw to bring USAPA to the forefront. Unions or new unions are not born out of labor peace.

You can pass all you want, threaten your lawsuits, even do your best to render USAPA impotent, but it will be the new union for all USAirways pilots. How you want to see it work for you will be solely dependent on your participation or lack thereof.

 

[BoeingBoy]

In our view DOH for mergers is a tenet to basic unionism. Seniority is everything.

Interesting choice of words - USAPA will represent all US pilots by setting policy to fit "our" views.......

Jim

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Interesting choice of words - USAPA will represent all US pilots by setting policy to fit "our" views.......

Jim

You have to start somewhere. As in the Bill of Rights. If the majority of US pilots want to change it. Then so be it. Not so very interesting in my opinion. After all it is published on the USAPA website.

 

[flyinawa]

Sorry for you, but it's not vengeance against the west, it's against ALPA and its flawed Constitution and ByLaws. To us it doesn't matter where we started, luckily the process of decertification has finally taken hold. Many of us have been waiting for this day. The arbitration was the final straw to bring USAPA to the forefront. Unions or new unions are not born out of labor peace.

You can pass all you want, threaten your lawsuits, even do your best to render USAPA impotent, but it will be the new union for all USAirways pilots. How you want to see it work for you will be solely dependent on your participation or lack thereof.

I agree with you on one point. Unions or new unions are not born out of labor peace. Unfortunately, that quote is suppose to be directed at the company or the existing leadership, not you fellow employees, in this case the AWA pilots.

And you think we're threatening lawsuits? I seem to remember the first thing your ELECTED LEADERSHIP, not ALPA national, did was to sue the AWA MEC after the Nic award. Brilliant! And how on earth do you think the AWA pilots wouldn't have a case for failure of DFR when the USAPA's birthcry was trying to overturn the Nic award to keep those "inexperience, low time west pilots" from hindering the careers of the US Airways pilots who were furloughed and weren't even on the property?

Nobody is saying the West pilots worship ALPA, but in this case I think we'll take it over what you out East are proposing. But hey, try it all again in about 5 years when the whole East/West issue is long gone and we're all holding hands. You might even get the Phoenix Based US Airways pilots to get onboard. Good luck with that.

 

[nycbusdriver]

In our view DOH for mergers is a tenet to basic unionism. Seniority is everything. The rest can be negotiated.

Interesting choice of words - USAPA will represent all US pilots by setting policy to fit "our" views.......

Jim

Not only our views, but a plethora of case law supports the view that DOH/longevity is the basis for integrating merged groups. It's a legal thing vs. an internal ALPA policy thing. Just ask all the judges that ruled that way, and get back to us.

 

[flyinawa]

Not only our views, but a plethora of case law supports the view that DOH/longevity is the basis for integrating merged groups. It's a legal thing vs. an internal ALPA policy thing. Just ask all the judges that ruled that way, and get back to us.

We only have to ask one. He's really the only one that counts and he didn't rule that way.

So.......it really is in your view.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If the majority of US pilots want to change it. Then so be it.

And you wonder why the West pilots could possibly feel that they would be disenfranchised by USAPA - the East conveniently has the majority and can do what they want.

Also interesting that the majority of pilots (who bother to vote) ratify a concession, it's ALPA's fault yet USAPA is setting up for the same.

a plethora of case law supports the view that DOH/longevity is the basis for integrating merged groups.

And how many non-DOH mergers has that "plethora of case law" overturned under the RLA......

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

So why hasn't a 3rd group surfaced (say supporters of IBT, or the like) who wants fair repesentation for both sides and would abide by the arbitration? Answer: because no other group would dedicate themselves wholly to the disenfrachisement of a large portion of the pilot group out of frustration with being unable to overturn the mutually agreed-to arbitration.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I seem to remember the first thing your ELECTED LEADERSHIP, not ALPA national, did was to sue the AWA MEC after the Nic award. Brilliant! And how on earth do you think the AWA pilots wouldn't have a case for failure of DFR when the USAPA's birthcry was trying to overturn the Nic award to keep those "inexperience, low time west pilots" from hindering the careers of the US Airways pilots who were furloughed and weren't even on the property?

You must have missed all my posts this summer when I said the lawsuit had no chance. I thought it was a moronic thing to do and a total waste of money. Just please don't confuse ALPA leaders with USAPA leaders. We are 2 very distinct groups. One has very little support and one has overwhelming support. Care to guess which one? DFR, discussed over and over, good luck, you'll need it.

Nobody is saying the West pilots worship ALPA, but in this case I think we'll take it over what you out East are proposing. But hey, try it all again in about 5 years when the whole East/West issue is long gone and we're all holding hands. You might even get the Phoenix Based US Airways pilots to get onboard. Good luck with that.

See that is what confuses me. First you have AWAPA, then lack of ALPA "worship". You only cling to ALPA because you know USAPA is founded on the basic form of union tenets. Maybe in 5 years you might be able to bring ALPA back. If it is still around with mainline carriers as members.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

And you wonder why the West pilots could possibly feel that they would be disenfranchised by USAPA - the East conveniently has the majority and can do what they want.

As of now, I believe that is correct. Your point?

Also interesting that the majority of pilots (who bother to vote) ratify a concession, it's ALPA's fault yet USAPA is setting up for the same.

No we're not setting up for the same. Especially in the manner in which your hypothesized concession was negotiated and the information was distributed. The proposed USAPA structure will at least get the information to the pilots.i.e. Web cammed meetings for viewing later. Do you remember when we were forced to vote on the contract in '98? You know, the one with parts in it that were to be negotiated later? Those types of contracts will not be forthcoming in the future.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So why hasn't a 3rd group surfaced (say supporters of IBT, or the like) who wants fair repesentation for both sides and would abide by the arbitration? Answer: because no other group would dedicate themselves wholly to the disenfrachisement of a large portion of the pilot group out of frustration with being unable to overturn the mutually agreed-to arbitration.

Why don't you start the 3rd group? Or even resurrect AWAPA? So you think we're not disenfranchised with ALPA? We have a difference of opinion and will always have one.
"mutually agreed-to arbitration." I believe there was no alternative since it was mandated. Not agreed to.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

We only have to ask one. He's really the only one that counts and he didn't rule that way.

And he is not a judge. Maybe you should reread the post.

Not only our views, but a plethora of case law supports the view that DOH/longevity is the basis for integrating merged groups. It's a legal thing vs. an internal ALPA policy thing. Just ask all the judges that ruled that way, and get back to us.

 

[nycbusdriver]

So why hasn't a 3rd group surfaced (say supporters of IBT, or the like) who wants fair repesentation for both sides and would abide by the arbitration? Answer: because no other group would dedicate themselves wholly to the disenfrachisement of a large portion of the pilot group out of frustration with being unable to overturn the mutually agreed-to arbitration.

The IBT was approached. It seems that they have an agreement with ALPA not to raid each others labor groups, so they declined the offer to organize the USAirways pilots. Except for inhouse unions, I don't know of any other that represents airline pilots. Initially, there were 3 groups that independently started this effort. Within a week or two, they joined forces under USAPA. I was contacted by all three since I happened to be on particular email lists that those individuals posted to. The USAPA pilots seemed to have what I considered the best plan of action at the time, so I suggested that they get together and bring their expertise and ideas to USAPA. I'm certain I was not the only one to advise doing that. I was amazed at how much groundwork was already in place WELL in advance of May 3. This effort was going to surface sooner or later. Nicolau simply hit the accelerator. DecertifyALPA.org and DecertifyALPA.com URLs were registered by a USAirways pilot in November of 2005 in prep for this move.