USAPA Files

[BoeingBoy]

You may be right, but keep in mind what was happening at the time.

I'm sure everyone that voted for everything that affected the MDA pilots had their reasons, but I suspect a large one was "It doesn't affect me, but if I don't vote for it I may be affected." The MDA pilots based in DCA were even able to pass a motion to recall their LEC reps because of the way the MEC treated them as "furloughed mainline", but the pilots who now care so much for the fate of those MDA pilots and insist that they were active mainline voted it down. Pilots who were angry that the MDA pilots had the nerve to sue ALPA now point to that lawsuit as proof that the award is flawed and ALPA is worthless.

You won't find a more staunch supporter of the MDA pilots than me (except for possibly the actual MDA pilots). I argued that they should be considered mainline when MDA operated on the mainline certificate. I said that it was stupidity to treat them as furloughed after the corporate entity know as MDA was merged into mainline (US Inc) prior to BK2. As I said not too long after the award was handed down, the jobs the MDA pilots brought to the merger was one of two things I would have handled differently if I had been the arbitrator.

That's why it sorta grinds my gears to see all these pilots so concerned over the fate of those MDA pilots now - most likely many of the same pilots who couldn't have cared less about the MDA pilots prior to the award coming out. The same pilots who hoped to escape some concession by throwing the MDA pilots under the bus are now pointing to those MDA pilots under the bus and saying "What ALPA did to them proves how unfair this all is!!"

Jim

 

[Bear96]

I was asked about MDA and I gave my opinion with facts that I know. Some that came second hand and speculation on my part.

And I too only offer my own thoughts and speculation.

So whatever is decided in court, it is what it is.

Agreed.

Personally I hope the MDA pilots win. They deserve everything they can get and then some.

We're still on the same page. The more people there are out there willing to spend money on litigation, the greater my job security.

As for your intent part, unless you're Pollock and ALPA, who knows what the intent was

Intent is very hard to prove, yes. Of course, what is even more important than intent is the plain meaning of any applicable agreements.

Finally, what does it matter to you anyway?

It matters not a whit to me whether the MDA pilots prevail, which is why the hostility towards me is so strange. I am interested in these issues only out of intellectual curiosity and a personal interest in this particular area of law. Why people seem to have assumed I am anti-MDA is odd. After all, elsewhere on this forum I have been accused of being "anti-LCC-East-pilot." So if that were the case, shouldn't I be supporting the MDA pilots?

In fact, I am neutral on the issue. From what little info is available it would not seem as though the MDA pilots have a strong case, but I am not familiar enough with the facts to say for sure. However, I am open to be convinced otherwise.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

In fact, I am neutral on the issue. From what little info is available it would not seem as though the MDA pilots have a strong case, but I am not familiar enough with the facts to say for sure. However, I am open to be convinced otherwise.

Bear, you haven't been neutral since I joined this board. Not even going to try to convince you. It would be a waste of time.

 

[dariencc]

No, sorry, my legal opinions are based on my training as a lawyer. But thanks for playing.

Why yes, of course. And a busy practice it must be, what with your daily postings on a web forum of a company that you never even worked for.
By the way, did you know that USA320Pilot is a trained and respected airline analyst?

Certainly a union is free to structure its organization such that people from more than one seniority list have access to certain union procedures and offices, if the union so chooses (unless there is something under RLA law I am not aware of, and if so please enlighten me). Now, if you could point to some ALPA policy which stated, "Everyone who can vote or run for office within a MEC must be on that MEC airline's seniority list," you would have a stronger position. Maybe such a provision exitsts; I don't know.

You're right, you don't know. Not only must one be on the pilot seniority list to vote or run in council elections, but one must be active. Those on the list but furloughed or on leave of absence are excluded. Perry Mason you are not.

Perhaps. Unfortunately, while I have some knowledge of tax law, I would hardly claim my expertise extends to that area. However, your point still seems to be irrelevant. Certainly mechanics at MDA had the same IRS tax identification employer number too, but that hardly means they are entitled to a place on the mainline pilot seniority list.

:blink:
Your red herring would be lame for the average 10th grader, much less a "trained" attorney. The tax identification number would be of equal relevance to the mechanics in proving that MDA was mainline and not a separate entity. Subsequent to that, however, the mainline seniority list which would apply is the IAM list.

 

[Bear96]

Bear, you haven't been neutral since I joined this board. Not even going to try to convince you. It would be a waste of time.

So since I am supposedly biased against the East MEC, explain why I am not posting that the MDA pilots have an air-tight case and will get whatver they want from the East MEC.

 

[Bear96]

Ah, I see my fans are still begging for attention.

The tax identification number would be of equal relevance to the mechanics in proving that MDA was mainline and not a separate entity.

Not a separate entity for tax purposes, yes. Now if you can connect the dots from tax entity to union seniority, you would have a good point. For example, if you have some authority which states all members of a craft within the same tax entity must be on the same union seniority list, that would help. I am not aware of any such authority (and as far as I know, the IRS does not particularly care how an employer structures its labor relations), but perhaps you can enlighten me.

 

[700UW]

The IAM M&R were on the mainline seniority list, you never come off, they were however under a seperate CBA. They had their own seniority at MDA which was governed by their mainline seniority.

They were not under the mainline CBA while at MDA and were furloughed from mainline and went to work at MDA.

They still were able to participate in Local Lodge and District Lodge matters as they were IAM members at MDA.

Most IAM Locals are amalgamated and IAM represented employees at various carriers are all part of the same local in most cities.

 

[Freighterguynow]

That's why it sorta grinds my gears to see all these pilots so concerned over the fate of those MDA pilots now - most likely many of the same pilots who couldn't have cared less about the MDA pilots prior to the award coming out. The same pilots who hoped to escape some concession by throwing the MDA pilots under the bus are now pointing to those MDA pilots under the bus and saying "What ALPA did to them proves how unfair this all is!!"

Jim

You're a good egg Jim ( and always were ).

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

By the way, did you know that USA320Pilot is a trained and respected airline analyst?

I hear he's got a lot of time to pursue that dream now...

 

[AAA73Pilot]

From the fine folks at the ACPC:

We are aware that some AAA and AWA pilots believe their names were put onto representation cards submitted to the National Mediation Board without their knowledge. If you believe your name has been used without your knowledge, please contact Marcus Migliore of ALPA’s Legal Department immediately. And also be sure to cc: Louise Fawbush.

I do believe ALPA is not facing reality. Each card submitted had to have an original signature in the pilots own handwriting. So I believe I see a challenge coming. Either that or there is some ALPA subterfuge. Luckily it will take more than that. Way to go ALPA!! You once again reinforce the resolve of the USAirways pilots to see you gone!!!

Speaking of challenges, if there are challenges then it opens the door to add cards that were not received in time. I would still recommend to all pilots to send your card in anyway. It may still count!! Send to:


National Mediation Board
Office of Legal Affairs
Re: NMB file No. CR-6926
1301 K. Street, N.W., Suite 250 East
Washington, DC 20005

 

[BoeingBoy]

So I believe I see a challenge coming.

No offense, but if you didn't see that before now........

The fun will really start once the company submits the list (or lists depending on status of SBU). With the NMB having to make some determinations on validity of cards and eligibility to vote, the list(s) will undoubtedly get close scrutiny by both sides.

Jim

 

[700UW]

The NMB sets a deadline for cards, a challenge does not extend that date.

 

[TechBoy]

Lets get something straight shark. I never mentioned it bothered me that you think you have a successful career. You claim there is only 10 people that can do what you do. You are an arrogant ass for even saying something like that.

One important thing you should realize out of the education you parents worked for, because a self made man does not brag like that, is that the pilots I loathe, I respect also. If they do not do their job correctly, they will be in the news the next day with ambulance chasers like you wanting their head on a spit.

You do not even belong in the same room that the pilots I argue with on this message board.

Whatever you say, oh skygod.

I think that you've conclusively proven who is the arrogant ass here . . .

 

[nycbusdriver]

No offense, but if you didn't see that before now........

The fun will really start once the company submits the list (or lists depending on status of SBU). With the NMB having to make some determinations on validity of cards and eligibility to vote, the list(s) will undoubtedly get close scrutiny by both sides.

Jim

ALPA and USAPA will get to challenge the signature list sent by the company as to employees listed, but the NMB alone will determine if the cards are valid with no oversight from ALPA, USAPA, or the company.

ALPA will never get to see any of the cards. USAPA will never see any of the cards send in directly to the NMB subsequent to the filing of the application for the election. Only the NMB will know the totality of just who sent in authorization cards.

From the NMB Representation Manual:

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/representation-manual.pdf


2.4 List of Potential Eligible Voters and Signature Samples
The carrier must serve three (3) copies of a system-wide alphabetized
list of potential eligible voters on the Investigator and serve one (1)
copy on each participants’ representative. Even if a participant is
contesting single transportation status (see Section 18.0, and 18.501),
they are required to produce a list in conformity with the section. The
NMB requires the carrier to provide a copy of the alphabetized list on a
disk in Excel spreadsheet format for the NMB’s administrative use only.
The list of potential eligible voters must include all individuals in the
craft or class with an employee-employer relationship as of the cut-off
date. The list must identify each employee’s full name, the job title,
and the duty station or location.
The carrier must also provide the NMB with one (1) copy of legible,
alphabetized signature samples for each employee on the list.
Examples of acceptable signature samples include tax-withholding
forms and employment and insurance applications. The alphabetized
signature samples must be in the same order as the names on the list
of potential eligible voters.

3.4 Cancellation or Revocation of Authorizations
The Investigator will neither accept nor honor proposed cancellations
or revocations of authorizations. Individuals seeking to revoke their
authorizations must go through the party to whom the original
authorizations were furnished.

3.5 Confidentiality of Authorizations
Authorizations will be handled only by NMB representatives.
The NMB keeps all authorizations confidential. This includes the names
of individuals who have signed authorizations and the number of
authorizations submitted. The carrier or opposing party or parties
should not be privy to the number or percentage of authorizations
furnished.

 

[EastUS]

Whatever you say, oh skygod.

I think that you've conclusively proven who is the arrogant ass here . . .

quote name='TechBoy' "My, my, we do like to repost this one repetitively. Does it bother you that people other than pilots can have successful careers?

"To answer your question, I'm a lawyer in an extremely specialized field. For the past decade, there has been extremely high demand for what I do. And therefore, I am very well paid. (Some would argue grossly overpaid -- but compared to athletes I'd say I'm underpaid. "

"Oh my. I think that you may need some counseling. You must have quite the inferiority complex.

"It's just flying a plane. A skilled job, but hardly rocket science. Some of you guys really need to get over yourselves."

I'll leave the issue as to "who is the arrogant ass here" up to the jury counselor