USAPA Files

[AAA73Pilot]

AAA73COPILOT
The MDA pilots werre all furloughed from USAir mainline. There is nothing to play out in court that will advance their position with respect to the Nicolau award.
Care to comment on this posting by "furoughedagain" in June of 2004 or do you still cling to the belief the MDA pilots are part of mainline yet they are furloughed? You are too funny (and emotional)! Peace.

Thank you. I like to be funny. But my emotions are my own and you really don't have a clue, do you? Why are you grasping so hard?

I'm assuming you're basing this diatribe on the certified list dated 5/19/05? Correct? Got news for you, that is why there is a lawsuit. Take a look at the combined Nic list which shows pilot Varini with a DOH adj. to 08/30/04. That was his MDA start date. Only problem is on the 5/19/05 certified list Varini is listed with a DOH of 6/19/00 Furloughed. Which is why you claim he should be treated as a furloughee.

This is why we're talking right now. The time line started with merger announcement on 5/19/05 hence the certified list. Or point me to some other list that I have access to or don't know about. So MDA was operating on 5/19/05. Merger completed on 9/27/05. PID announced on 10/24/05. BTW. In violation of ALPA policy.

It has been shown by other posters and common knowledge that MDA was operating under the mainline certificate. Therefore my claim he was a working mainline pilot, on the mainline list, not separate as you want to claim. That is where Pollock, ALPA and the company are/were in such a bind. Except I believe the company has since corrected itself to get off the lawsuit hook. Now, Nic is using a flawed list and his slotting assumptions based on mis-information. How could that be? Well that is where et. AL. at ALPA are having heartburn right now. Varini was a working pilot on 5/19/05!! Not furloughed!! and all of the ALPA cover-ups are not going to save themselves. That is also why the lawsuit was amended to $175m. There is more evidence, but thats second hand info.

So it all boils down to the lawsuit and confirming MDA was mainline. To me it seems cut and dried. But that's me. Now, I will admit when I'm wrong and say I stated that Varini was a new hire based on the Nic list. I stand corrected. Will you do the same?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Care to comment on this posting by "furoughedagain" in June of 2004 or do you still cling to the belief the MDA pilots are part of mainline yet they are furloughed? You are too funny (and emotional)! Peace.

This is from the thread: Furloughees Without Access To Alpa Web, MAA Classes/ APL Pref Form Unavailable?

Jun 14 2004, 07:08 PM Post #1

Hello,

According to the folks over at MidAtlantic, furloughees can view upcoming classes and download new APL preference forms from the ALPA website.

This information is, obviously, very important to furloughees.

Unfortunately ALPA has removed access to the ALPA website for furloughed pilots who have found interim employment elsewhere.

So, for those of us who are employed elsewhere, how can we go about getting this data and new APL preference forms to mail?

Thanks in advance.

Now to respond to this post. Very easy. ALPA at its best representing all pilots. Just another reason to see ALPA gone!! Will add this to my list for the fine people at ACPC.

 

[twoturnin]

After reading the last ALPO message about the meeting or lack there of in KDEN-----looks like the AWA folks didn't blink after all----is it Trusteeship coming for the AAA MEC or every Eastern mothers son and daughter voting ALPO off the property--geez

 

[Bear96]

It has been shown by other posters and common knowledge that MDA was operating under the mainline certificate. Therefore my claim he was a working mainline pilot, on the mainline list, not separate as you want to claim. That is where Pollock, ALPA and the company are/were in such a bind.

The key will be what the intent of the parties was during MDA negotiations. If the company and ALPA intended MDA pilots to be "a working mainline pilot, on the mainline list," then your claim has merit. If however the company and ALPA intended to create a separate seniority list, you will have problems from a contract law point of view. Whether MDA was operating under a separate FAA certificate or not will likely be an irrelevant technicality.

 

[KTM300]

The key will be what the intent of the parties was during MDA negotiations. If the company and ALPA intended MDA pilots to be "a working mainline pilot, on the mainline list," then your claim has merit. If however the company and ALPA intended to create a separate seniority list, you will have problems from a contract law point of view. Whether MDA was operating under a separate FAA certificate or not will likely be an irrelevant technicality.

If you are correct, Which I don't think you are, why then did ALPA try to settle out of court with the MDA pilots that have a lawsuit against ALPA. Didn't the judge laugh at ALPA's $1 mil. offer?

What does it matter to you, anyway? The point is that the Company, namely Seigel tried to sell the Pilots a bill of goods. It didn't work...Seigel couldn't get a certificate. ALPA and the MEC Chair Bill Pollack should have stepped up and stopped Seigel dead in his tracks without the certificate. Instead, Pollack did nothing. ALPA did nothing. Now you feel compelled to martyr these pilots and treat them like they are new hires. You should be ashamed of yourself!

 

[dariencc]

Whether MDA was operating under a separate FAA certificate or not will likely be an irrelevant technicality.

Thanks so much for your legal opinion, which no doubt is that of an expert, based on your training as a United Airlines flight attendant. If it would not be too much trouble, Counselor, could you please explain how MDA pilots were able to vote in all Alpa elections at US Airways, and how MDA pilot James Portale was able to hold elected Alpa office in PHL Council 41?

If your expertise extends as well to tax law, could you please explain for us the ramifications of the IRS tax identification number for the MDA employees being identical to that of US Airways? Just another one of those kooky coincidences, perhaps?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

The key will be what the intent of the parties was during MDA negotiations. If the company and ALPA intended MDA pilots to be "a working mainline pilot, on the mainline list," then your claim has merit. If however the company and ALPA intended to create a separate seniority list, you will have problems from a contract law point of view. Whether MDA was operating under a separate FAA certificate or not will likely be an irrelevant technicality.

I was asked about MDA and I gave my opinion with facts that I know. Some that came second hand and speculation on my part. So whatever is decided in court, it is what it is. Personally I hope the MDA pilots win. They deserve everything they can get and then some.

As for your intent part, unless you're Pollock and ALPA, who knows what the intent was. However, if the intent was to screw USAirways pilots by said parties, it worked. Now it's time to answer to the pilots. Just one more set of multiple blunders by ALPA. Finally, what does it matter to you anyway?

 

[twoturnin]

besides USAPA banging on ALPO's door---whatever happened to the MDA lawsuit against ALPO ?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

If your expertise extends as well to tax law, could you please explain for us the ramifications of the IRS tax identification number for the MDA employees being identical to that of US Airways? Just another one of those kooky coincidences, perhaps?

WOW. Great post!!! I didn't know that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ya gotta love some of the selective recollection regarding the plight of the MDA folks.....

"ALPA" treated the MDA pilots as recalled - that was one of the arguments the MDA pilots used to dispute the East MEC's claim that they were furloughed from mainline. It was the MEC, elected by the pilots, who kept insisting that MDA pilots were still furloughed from mainline. In fact, the MEC continued that farce into the fall of 2005, months after the merger was announced - anyone still remember the change of control grievance over the sale of the 170's?

Here's a "tutorial" on the MEC view of the MDA pilot's status after the merger was announced, courtesy of our friend USA320Pilot:

1. The MDA pilots, excluding the the CEL pilots, are furloughed mainline pilots.

2. The MDA pilots cannot bid a mainline job until they're recalled and the mainline pilots cannot bid a MDA job. The only way a person can be a MDA pilot is to be furloughed from mainline, then hired to MDA from a wholly owned carrier via the CEL list, or hired off the street. MDA is not open to active US Airways pilots.

3. MDA has not merged into US Airways and is a separate division with much of its own structure, like I indicated in a previous post.

In regard to your question, contractually, the MDA pilots have a distinct separate working agreement. The only CBA exceptions are for Sections 1, 19, 20, 25 and the accelerated arbitration side letter. MDA scope gives MDA pilots the exclusive right to fly the EMB-170170/175 and as such keeps them and that flying separate from mainline pilots.

The pilots flying the EMB-170 aircraft at US Airway's MDA Division are considered active AAA union pilots, but they are not active US Airways mainline pilots because they're furloughed. Yes, I know that they're dues paying members of the AAA chapter of ALPA.

Most mainline pilots couldn't have cared less about the MDA pilots, who were all on furlough, at the time MDA started up. It was the majority of mainline pilots who stood idly by and said nothing while the MEC treated the MDA pilots as furloughed. It was the majority of mainline pilots who voted for the crappy contract the MDA pilots worked under. It was the majority of mainline pilots who voted to allow the E-170 to be sold out from under the MDA pilots. Heck, many mainline pilots thought MDA was just another affiliate carrier like Mesa.

It was only when the MDA pilots were useful as a tool for pointing out the supposed error of Nic's decision that most mainline pilots cared one whit about them. They were once again a tool to be used, one more time.

The MDA pilots, slighted so often, had two things going against them when it came to the combined list - the East MEC's actions/words, and the fact that the act that resulted in their furlough from MDA was a pre-merger event - the agreement to sale the E170's to Republic.

Jim

 

[KTM300]

Ya gotta love some of the selective recollection regarding the plight of the MDA folks.....


Most mainline pilots couldn't have cared less about the MDA pilots, who were all on furlough, at the time MDA started up. It was the majority of mainline pilots who stood idly by and said nothing while the MEC treated the MDA pilots as furloughed. It was the majority of mainline pilots who voted for the crappy contract the MDA pilots worked under. It was the majority of mainline pilots who voted to allow the E-170 to be sold out from under the MDA pilots. Heck, many mainline pilots thought MDA was just another affiliate carrier like Mesa.

It was only when the MDA pilots were useful as a tool for pointing out the supposed error of Nic's decision that most mainline pilots cared one whit about them. They were once again a tool to be used, one more time.

The MDA pilots, slighted so often, had two things going against them when it came to the combined list - the East MEC's actions/words, and the fact that the act that resulted in their furlough from MDA was a pre-merger event - the agreement to sale the E170's to Republic.

Jim

You may be right, but keep in mind what was happening at the time. Many pilots were suffering financially. Many had to make drastic changes in their personal lives to get through a rough period for everyone...well maybe not everyone, but alot of guys. It was not that anyone could have cared less about the MDA pilots, unless you are talking about yourself. Losing your house, your marriage, your family, which many had, obviously came first. However, I did call Pollack one day, and expressed my concern for the MDA pilots. His response to me was,"I don't know why they are complaining, they got &%^$#* jobs don't they. Next time I should just let them get furloughed and not worry about it."

Many pilots had put their faith and trust into an organization that apparently had already turned its back on them, not only from ALPA national but, who would have guessed, also from their MEC.

 

[nostradamus]

My, my, we do like to repost this one repetitively. Does it bother you that people other than pilots can have successful careers?

To answer your question, I'm a lawyer in an extremely specialized field. For the past decade, there has been extremely high demand for what I do. And therefore, I am very well paid. (Some would argue grossly overpaid -- but compared to athletes I'd say I'm underpaid. ) I do not know whether this demand will continue until I'm 50 or 60. Maybe. Maybe not. I could end up making less 10 years from now -- it will have little to do with my "seniority" and more to do with the market. So I (like many pilots) am using the good times to make sure that I can handle any bad times that might come.



I'm the meantime, no one has answered the question on how to treat the Shuttle pilots.

Lets get something straight shark. I never mentioned it bothered me that you think you have a successful career. You claim there is only 10 people that can do what you do. You are an arrogant ass for even saying something like that.

One important thing you should realize out of the education you parents worked for, because a self made man does not brag like that, is that the pilots I loathe, I respect also. If they do not do their job correctly, they will be in the news the next day with ambulance chasers like you wanting their head on a spit.

You do not even belong in the same room that the pilots I argue with on this message board.

 

[Bear96]

If you are correct, Which I don't think you are, why then did ALPA try to settle out of court with the MDA pilots that have a lawsuit against ALPA. Didn't the judge laugh at ALPA's $1 mil. offer?

I have no idea. Got a link to the settlement, or to some evidence that "the judge laughed at ALPA's $1 mil. offer"?

(BTW, lots of times companies try to settle just to get rid of litigation instead of spending more money to defend it. It doesn't always mean the litigation necessarily has any substantive legal merit.)

Now you feel compelled to martyr these pilots and treat them like they are new hires. You should be ashamed of yourself!

?

I just pointed out a basic concept in contract law (i.e., to interpret a contract, if it is not clear from the plain language of the document, courts may look to what the parties to the contract intended). You are free to disagree, but that would be an interesting view of the law.

I take it by your indignation that the company and ALPA did indeed intend to create a separate seniority list for MDA pilots?

 

[Bear96]

Thanks so much for your legal opinion, which no doubt is that of an expert, based on your training as a United Airlines flight attendant.

No, sorry, my legal opinions are based on my training as a lawyer. But thanks for playing.

If it would not be too much trouble, Counselor, could you please explain how MDA pilots were able to vote in all Alpa elections at US Airways, and how MDA pilot James Portale was able to hold elected Alpa office in PHL Council 41?

Again, you would have to go first to the language of the agreements in place, and then to the intent of the parties. Certainly a union is free to structure its organization such that people from more than one seniority list have access to certain union procedures and offices, if the union so chooses (unless there is something under RLA law I am not aware of, and if so please enlighten me). Now, if you could point to some ALPA policy which stated, "Everyone who can vote or run for office within a MEC must be on that MEC airline's seniority list," you would have a stronger position. Maybe such a provision exitsts; I don't know.

If your expertise extends as well to tax law, could you please explain for us the ramifications of the IRS tax identification number for the MDA employees being identical to that of US Airways? Just another one of those kooky coincidences, perhaps?

Perhaps. Unfortunately, while I have some knowledge of tax law, I would hardly claim my expertise extends to that area. However, your point still seems to be irrelevant. Certainly mechanics at MDA had the same IRS tax identification employer number too, but that hardly means they are entitled to a place on the mainline pilot seniority list.

Frankly, your hostility towards me is bizarre. It doesn't matter to me whether MDA pilots are on the mainline seniority list. I have no dog in this fight.* I am just sharing my thoughts on the matter. If you don't like it, feel free to put me on ignore.



* - In anticipation of your next question: Because I can.

 

[dariencc]

Jim,

Everything in your post is on the money. Our problem for years has been that a majority of pilots passively let Pollock and his cronies get away with every sleazy "deal" they came up with. Your inclusion of USA320's old post is priceless, as it shows the cravenness and utter hypocrisy of our longtime Alpa leadership clique.

The absurd wording, even by USA320's standards, of his explanation of the MDA pilots' status is telling:
The pilots flying the EMB-170 aircraft at US Airway's MDA Division are considered active AAA union pilots, but they are not active US Airways mainline pilots because they're furloughed. Yes, I know that they're dues paying members of the AAA chapter of ALPA

What this doubletalk tries to get around is the fact that US Airways Alpa expected the MDA pilots to accept that they were not mainline for no real reason other than that Pollock and his yes men said they were. That was not good enough for the MDA pilots, hence the lawsuit, which Alpa has unsuccessfully tried to settle.

The sizeable minority that has opposed Alpa's sleazy deal making for years has now exploded into an overwhelming majority. Not too many are disengaged now. What the cactus group cannot grasp, because of their lack of knowledge of this history, is that the Nic award was the final straw for Alpa on this property, not the one and only blip in an otherwise distinguished record.

While I actually believe that the pilots, on principle alone, should be raising hell (and you know what I mean) over USA320's present predicament, I couldn't fault the MDA folks for a bit of schadenfreude as they read his words above.

Here's another bonus question for the MDA was not mainline cheering section. Was the FOM that MDA crews carried that of A) MDA, B} Mesa Airlines, or C) US Airways?
The answer, of course, is C, and there is an important reason for that. After Pollock and Alpa agreed the MDA operation would be separate from mainline, the company attempted to set it up under its own certificate, but on the cheap. The "new" MDA FOM was little more than the US Airways FOM with a new cover. The rest of the organization was a sham as well, and the Feds refused to play along. MDA was not going to be allowed to operate, so the company had to go back to the drawing board and use the mainline certificate to operate the "division." All they needed was the Pollock/Munn chorus line of sycophants to accept their convoluted B.S. about how it was not really a part of the mainline. What a disgrace.

Ya gotta love some of the selective recollection regarding the plight of the MDA folks.....

"ALPA" treated the MDA pilots as recalled - that was one of the arguments the MDA pilots used to dispute the East MEC's claim that they were furloughed from mainline. It was the MEC, elected by the pilots, who kept insisting that MDA pilots were still furloughed from mainline. In fact, the MEC continued that farce into the fall of 2005, months after the merger was announced - anyone still remember the change of control grievance over the sale of the 170's?

Here's a "tutorial" on the MEC view of the MDA pilot's status after the merger was announced, courtesy of our friend USA320Pilot:

1. The MDA pilots, excluding the the CEL pilots, are furloughed mainline pilots.

2. The MDA pilots cannot bid a mainline job until they're recalled and the mainline pilots cannot bid a MDA job. The only way a person can be a MDA pilot is to be furloughed from mainline, then hired to MDA from a wholly owned carrier via the CEL list, or hired off the street. MDA is not open to active US Airways pilots.

3. MDA has not merged into US Airways and is a separate division with much of its own structure, like I indicated in a previous post.

In regard to your question, contractually, the MDA pilots have a distinct separate working agreement. The only CBA exceptions are for Sections 1, 19, 20, 25 and the accelerated arbitration side letter. MDA scope gives MDA pilots the exclusive right to fly the EMB-170170/175 and as such keeps them and that flying separate from mainline pilots.

The pilots flying the EMB-170 aircraft at US Airway's MDA Division are considered active AAA union pilots, but they are not active US Airways mainline pilots because they're furloughed. Yes, I know that they're dues paying members of the AAA chapter of ALPA.

Most mainline pilots couldn't have cared less about the MDA pilots, who were all on furlough, at the time MDA started up. It was the majority of mainline pilots who stood idly by and said nothing while the MEC treated the MDA pilots as furloughed. It was the majority of mainline pilots who voted for the crappy contract the MDA pilots worked under. It was the majority of mainline pilots who voted to allow the E-170 to be sold out from under the MDA pilots. Heck, many mainline pilots thought MDA was just another affiliate carrier like Mesa.

It was only when the MDA pilots were useful as a tool for pointing out the supposed error of Nic's decision that most mainline pilots cared one whit about them. They were once again a tool to be used, one more time.

The MDA pilots, slighted so often, had two things going against them when it came to the combined list - the East MEC's actions/words, and the fact that the act that resulted in their furlough from MDA was a pre-merger event - the agreement to sale the E170's to Republic.

Jim