USAPA Files

[N924PS]

It's not a valid question. More like baiting. USAPA was where when the list was constructed? Our input was where?

It sounds as if you may be one of the principals in the new union.

If that is the case, I find it rather astonsihing that you spend so m any of your waking hours as the USAPA spin doc on US Aviation's boards. I can't believe you are so well organized and have completed every organizational task that you have time to kill on these boards.

If the bandwith on this board and 3000 cards which may or may not be in favor of your new union is all you've got to show for your efforts, then USAPA is in trouble leaving the gate.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

It sounds as if you may be one of the principals in the new union.

Nope. I'm not a principal. I plan on doing committee work after the election. Besides, my days in here are numbered now. Think about it.

 

[fr8tmastr]

Isn't that part of the basis for the MDA lawsuit. The MDA pilots on the certified list that the AAA MC submitted and accepted by the AWA MC, showed the MDA pilots as active, yet the list that was used showed them as furloughed. Does anyone know the facts?

Yes that is exactly what happened.

The list that nic used was an old company list that had the 170 pilots listed as furloughed, The company acknowledged the mistake and corrected it.

 

[prechilill]

Yes that is exactly what happened.

The list that nic used was an old company list that had the 170 pilots listed as furloughed, The company acknowledged the mistake and corrected it.

That is an incorrect statement. The "snapshot" list correctly placed the MDA pilots in a furloughed position because the company, union and pilots agreed to have a home for the furloughed pilots who chose to work at MDA. There is no difference in their furloughed status than with the other furloughed pilots who bypassed the opportunity to work at MDA. Some of these pilots that bypassed went to work at USAir contracted regionals, others left flying completely. All together, whether they were flying for MDA, Mesa or hanging out at home they all shared a furloughed status.

The eventual owner of the MDA operation was a contracted regional. If you want to give these guys access to the USAir mainline seniority list what about the wholly owned regionals? Again, I am waiting for a USAPA-mom to answer that question.

 

[prechilill]

Isn't that part of the basis for the MDA lawsuit. The MDA pilots on the certified list that the AAA MC submitted and accepted by the AWA MC, showed the MDA pilots as active, yet the list that was used showed them as furloughed. Does anyone know the facts?

Below is a letter sent to flight attendants in November, 2004 regarding employment at MAA. This is taken from a thread titled: From Mainline to Embraer Division, How Many Flight Attendants Would Go? here on the USAviation website.

This was sent to the MAA F/As recently by thier union leader:
=================================================
Dear Flight Attendants-

As you know, the flow through language to allow furloughed Mainline Flight Attendants to bid into MAA has existed as long as MAA. The Language reads that the flow through rights are present, but as for the "date" as to when this will be implemented, is contingent upon a Furlough. Management for Mainline has announced a furlough for January 15, 2005. I do not know if this "includes" numbers for a VSIP, or if a VSIP will be offered.

It is posted on the www.afausairways.com website, under the PHL base info, that the furloughed mainline flight attendants will be given the opportunity to bid into MAA for a February 2 training date. It also states that MAA is seeking to fill 48 positions, for this training class. How they are projecting that they will need this many on this particular date, I do not know. But I will be inquiring as to why, to several questions.

I will keep you all updated. Please call or e-mail with any concerns.

Thank you,

 

[prechilill]

Now to the MDA pilots. The dirty little secret between ALPA and the company is being played out in the court system as we speak. Maybe you can explain how the MDA pilots were included on the Nicolau list if, as you say, they were not part of the mainline? Simple answer is, they were. Hence the cover-up and lawsuits. Enough said. The court system will determine your answer.

AAA73COPILOT
The MDA pilots werre all furloughed from USAir mainline. There is nothing to play out in court that will advance their position with respect to the Nicolau award.
Care to comment on this posting by "furoughedagain" in June of 2004 or do you still cling to the belief the MDA pilots are part of mainline yet they are furloughed? You are too funny (and emotional)! Peace.

This is from the thread: Furloughees Without Access To Alpa Web, MAA Classes/ APL Pref Form Unavailable?

Jun 14 2004, 07:08 PM Post #1


Senior


Group: Registered Member
Posts: 415
Joined: 22-August 02
From: Bentonville, AR (XNA)
Member No.: 463



Hello,

According to the folks over at MidAtlantic, furloughees can view upcoming classes and download new APL preference forms from the ALPA website.

This information is, obviously, very important to furloughees.

Unfortunately ALPA has removed access to the ALPA website for furloughed pilots who have found interim employment elsewhere.

So, for those of us who are employed elsewhere, how can we go about getting this data and new APL preference forms to mail?

Thanks in advance.

 

[KTM300]

AAA73COPILOT
The MDA pilots werre all furloughed from USAir mainline. There is nothing to play out in court that will advance their position with respect to the Nicolau award.
Care to comment on this posting by "furoughedagain" in June of 2004 or do you still cling to the belief the MDA pilots are part of mainline yet they are furloughed? You are too funny (and emotional)! Peace.

This is from the thread: Furloughees Without Access To Alpa Web, MAA Classes/ APL Pref Form Unavailable?

Jun 14 2004, 07:08 PM Post #1


Senior


Group: Registered Member
Posts: 415
Joined: 22-August 02
From: Bentonville, AR (XNA)
Member No.: 463



Hello,

According to the folks over at MidAtlantic, furloughees can view upcoming classes and download new APL preference forms from the ALPA website.

This information is, obviously, very important to furloughees.

Unfortunately ALPA has removed access to the ALPA website for furloughed pilots who have found interim employment elsewhere.

So, for those of us who are employed elsewhere, how can we go about getting this data and new APL preference forms to mail?

Thanks in advance.

MR or Ms. Prechilill,

I won't argue with you but I will tell you, from my perspective. MDA was the brain child of D. Seigel, a union buster in my opinion. The original concept was to establish a seperate operation using the Embraer a/c with furloughed mainline pilots. Not new hires, just mainline pilots that were furloughed due in most part to mismanagement. Seigel told Pollack, MDA would be operating under a seperate operating certificate. Seigel could not obtain a seperate certificate. This is were it gets a little sticky. Seigel chose to operate MDA using the mainline certificate. Bill Pollack, ALPA MEC chairman at the time should have told Seigel, time out! But he didn't. Shame on him. Shame on Seigel(but that's business), and shame on ALPA for not putting their almighty, 'look what we have done for you' foot down. This is one example of why ALPA will no longer represent the pilots at USAirways very soon.

Nontheless, what is equally disturbing is your condesending attitude toward those pilots. Alot has happened with the MDA pilots since 2004, includinding a multimillion dollar lawsuit that ALPA tried to settle out of court. The MDA pilots were as much mainline pilots as the top 517! Please don't let management's mismanagement and the ALPA screwups cloud what Airline pilots do!

 

[fatherabraham]

MR or Ms. Prechilill,


Nontheless, what is equally disturbing is your condesending attitude toward those pilots. Alot has happened with the MDA pilots since 2004, includinding a multimillion dollar lawsuit that ALPA tried to settle out of court. The MDA pilots were as much mainline pilots as the top 517! Please don't let management's mismanagement and the ALPA screwups cloud what Airline pilots do!

KTM300,
Welcome to board! Right On post!
Lot of that seemingly condescending attitude by AWA.

Where do you ride?

FA

 

[algflyr]

That is an incorrect statement. The "snapshot" list correctly placed the MDA pilots in a furloughed position because the company, union and pilots agreed to have a home for the furloughed pilots who chose to work at MDA. There is no difference in their furloughed status than with the other furloughed pilots who bypassed the opportunity to work at MDA. Some of these pilots that bypassed went to work at USAir contracted regionals, others left flying completely. All together, whether they were flying for MDA, Mesa or hanging out at home they all shared a furloughed status.

The eventual owner of the MDA operation was a contracted regional. If you want to give these guys access to the USAir mainline seniority list what about the wholly owned regionals? Again, I am waiting for a USAPA-mom to answer that question.

Yours is actually the incorrect statement...

The official list from the company (not the one used) did show many furloughed pilots, however, the pilots flying the 170 did NOT have FUR by their name. Again the wrong list was used... The pilots that worked the 170's when they were on the mainline certificate received credit for their work. Hypothetical example. Let's say a pilot was hired in 2000, and then was furloughed in 2002. He had 2 years of service and was paid on the 2 year payscale. He goes to MDA in 2003 and worked there 3 years before being furloughed again. When he gets recalled again in 2006, he finds himself working on the 5 year payscale. That is what has happened. How did they get mainline credit if they did not work at mainline???

The problem with the above scenario is that many furloughed pilots did NOT go to MDA and probably would have if they had known they would get longevity credit. That was handled poorly by the company and ALPA and those pilots have a legitimate gripe.

Saying that the aircraft sold by mainline to another company should give pilots of the aquiring carrier access to the mainline list is just like sayin if US Airways sells the 737's to Airtran, then the Airtran pilots should have access to the US Airways seniority list (not that they would want that)...

 

[algflyr]

Below is a letter sent to flight attendants in November, 2004 regarding employment at MAA. This is taken from a thread titled: From Mainline to Embraer Division, How Many Flight Attendants Would Go? here on the USAviation website.

These dates seem a little off...

MDA started flying in 2003. By November 2004, there were already a few hundred FA's working the 170's....

Also, I don't think there was a FA furlough from mainline in 2005...

 

[TechBoy]

Arrogant post by tech boy below.

"I suppose that the case could be made that even accounting for my multiple degrees and highly specialized knowledge that I am grossly overpaid."

"However, there are less than 10 people qualified to do what I do, so I get paid a boatload to do it."

What do you do, techboy, that only 10 other people in the world can do, get along with women all the time?

My, my, we do like to repost this one repetitively. Does it bother you that people other than pilots can have successful careers?

To answer your question, I'm a lawyer in an extremely specialized field. For the past decade, there has been extremely high demand for what I do. And therefore, I am very well paid. (Some would argue grossly overpaid -- but compared to athletes I'd say I'm underpaid. ) I do not know whether this demand will continue until I'm 50 or 60. Maybe. Maybe not. I could end up making less 10 years from now -- it will have little to do with my "seniority" and more to do with the market. So I (like many pilots) am using the good times to make sure that I can handle any bad times that might come.

What I don't understand is how many pilots like you cannot seem to see the facts that are right in front of you. You work in an industry that has a long term profit rate of about 0%. Despite falling pay, there are many, many people that want to be pilots and are being trained to be pilots. The 90s boom created a short period of time in which airfares increased rapidly, fuel prices were low, and pilot unions were able to achieve dramatic temporary increases in pilot pay. Now fuel costs are high, there are few domestic routes with price premiums, and airline profitability remains shaky. Any reasonable observer will come to the conclusion that pilot salaries are not going to return to past levels. If you don't like it, then I suggest you find another profession. There are plenty of young pilots who will happily take your place. Those are the laws of economics.

I'm the meantime, no one has answered the question on how to treat the Shuttle pilots.

 

[TechBoy]

It's not a valid question. More like baiting. USAPA was where when the list was constructed? Our input was where?

I'm not suggesting that the Shuttle pilots problem was created by USAPA. That's not the point. The point is what will USAPA do with respect to them. If I understand what has been advocated by the USAPA advocates here, USAPA will use DOH for all questions of seniority and that DOH is the best/only/fairest way to handle these matters. If that is true, then what should happen to the Shuttle pilots? Should they get DOH too? Or is slotting appropriate for them? Or something else?

I'm not asking what USAPA's position on this is. I'm sure that USAPA is wisely ducking the question. I'm not asking what can or cannot legally be done. I'm just asking the opinion of the DOH advocates whether that principle should be applied in all cases or just in some.

 

[700UW]

What about the Empire pilots who only kept their time if they stayed on the F28, what is USAPA's position on them getting their seniority back if you want get rid of the NIC award and go by DOH?

 

[KTM300]

I'm not suggesting that the Shuttle pilots problem was created by USAPA. That's not the point. The point is what will USAPA do with respect to them. If I understand what has been advocated by the USAPA advocates here, USAPA will use DOH for all questions of seniority and that DOH is the best/only/fairest way to handle these matters. If that is true, then what should happen to the Shuttle pilots? Should they get DOH too? Or is slotting appropriate for them? Or something else?

I'm not asking what USAPA's position on this is. I'm sure that USAPA is wisely ducking the question. I'm not asking what can or cannot legally be done. I'm just asking the opinion of the DOH advocates whether that principle should be applied in all cases or just in some.

That is all I was trying to find out as well. I am not a former Trump Shuttle Pilot and I understand that everyone of the Shuttle pilots had to quit Eastern in order to get hired at Trump Shuttle. So maybe the question is, What is their true DOH? Ironically, each Trump Shuttle pilot has their original Eastern DOH listed on the USAirways master seniority list.

If, however, you are a DOH advocate, why not adjust the list. Sure...I would lose some seniority, but my principle overrides my desire to be senior.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I understand that everyone of the Shuttle pilots had to quit Eastern in order to get hired at Trump Shuttle.

Almost but not quite.....

As I recall, Eastern pilots had the choice of going with the Shuttle operation when it was sold to Trump. Those that elected to go to Trump then had to resign from Eastern. It's the difference between going with the job that is spun off (fragmentation protection) and leaving a job that still exists because the grass looks greener somewhere else. Most carriers have fragmentation language in the CBA to protect those whose jobs are being sold off.

Jim