USAPA Files

[prechilill]

Our vision for the future is to have a merger policy that never gets to arbitration. Especially when it pertains to DOH/LOS.

Mandating DOH integration introduces about as much freedom of discussion as the Third Reich introduced in 1936. Besides, ALPA is quite clear in that it remains neutral in all merger negotiations between two ALPA carriers. Blaming ALPA for the failure of your hard-lined "DOH- or- bust" negotation approach is rediculous. You ended up with the Nicolau award because your pilot group chose to be in ALPA and chose to go to arbitration and decided to throw an arrogant, unworkable solution at the arbitrator.

Here is a question about the wholly owned regionals and USAPA. Since DOH would be the mandated integration of all seniority lists, and since USAPA proposes to use the time of MDA pilots, how can you leave out the wholly-owned regional pilots? Shouldn't they be entitled to their DOH on a combined seniority list too? And if not, how come the MDA pilots who were not even working for the mainline operation during the AWA buyout can use their time and not any of the wholly-owned pilots who have years of seniority under the USAir umbrella? Is USAPA going to demand the regional pilots be placed on a combined seniority list with DOH protections of their seniority? By your simple, thoughtless integration plan could we actually see a DASH-8 captain go to the left seat of an Airbus? Because, DOH is DOH at an airline, right? Or is that little element the subjective interpretation of the USAPA mothers?
And speaking of past integrations, what does USAPA plan to do with the shuttle integration? Do these guys lose their seniority from that decision too? Are you going to re-write the entire seniority list?

 

[88 B.T.D.]

And if not, how come the MDA pilots who were not even working for the mainline operation during the AWA buyout can use their time and not any of the wholly-owned pilots who have years of seniority under the USAir umbrella?

The difference is that MDA was mainline (same certificate,payroll, et al) hence the law suit against ALPA, where the wholly owned had their own certificates.


And speaking of past integrations, what does USAPA plan to do with the shuttle integration? Do these guys lose their seniority from that decision too? Are you going to re-write the entire seniority list?

If that is what the constitution that is voted in allows then that will happen. Majority rules (I don't see it happening without some kind of protection for those folks since they have held current status almost 10years)

 

[prechilill]

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the wholly owned airlines get paid by USAir also since they are entirely owned, operated and managed by USAir?
Another question since you brought up certificates. How can the AWA pilots working under a different certificate for about two years since the buyout have time count towards seniority with USAPA and not pilots flying for the wholly owned regionals under a different cerrtificate? If a wholly owned pilot begins flying an airbus for USAirways are you going to reject his original DOH under the USAir umbrella? In the end an AWA pilot wasn't hired by the same hiring comittee as a USAir east pilot or a Piedmont DASH-8 pilot. Please explain because I found no direction on the USAirlinepilots.org website. It is filled with rosy promises and devoid of any answers to these issues.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You ended up with the Nicolau award because your pilot group chose to be in ALPA and chose to go to arbitration and decided to throw an arrogant, unworkable solution at the arbitrator.

Wondering when someone would bring these points up. Thanks.
Chose to be in ALPA? What are we trying to choose now? That is about the most stupid statement I have seen in a long time.

ALPA merger policy does not leave a choice when 2 ALPA carriers disagree. Arbitration is mandated. We didn't choose it. And why am I defending the MC over this? ALPA merger policy is the root of the problem or should I say "guidelines"? What's the point of merger policy in the Constitution and ByLaws if it has no bearing outside of ALPA i.e. arbitration?

Here is a question about the wholly owned regionals and USAPA. Since DOH would be the mandated integration of all seniority lists, and since USAPA proposes to use the time of MDA pilots, how can you leave out the wholly-owned regional pilots? Shouldn't they be entitled to their DOH on a combined seniority list too? And if not, how come the MDA pilots who were not even working for the mainline operation during the AWA buyout can use their time and not any of the wholly-owned pilots who have years of seniority under the USAir umbrella? Is USAPA going to demand the regional pilots be placed on a combined seniority list with DOH protections of their seniority? By your simple, thoughtless integration plan could we actually see a DASH-8 captain go to the left seat of an Airbus? Because, DOH is DOH at an airline, right? Or is that little element the subjective interpretation of the USAPA mothers?
And speaking of past integrations, what does USAPA plan to do with the shuttle integration? Do these guys lose their seniority from that decision too? Are you going to re-write the entire seniority list?

To answer the first question in the paragraph. The wholly owned pilots are not on our seniority list. Are you proposing another merger? The managements of them have been purposefully set up to keep them separate. Do you really want to set the precedent by attempting to declare them eligible under a single transportation system? Managements and other mainline carriers who would be affected by the precedent will step in to see you fail on this point. Can you imagine? DAL and Comair or AA and Eagle for that matter. If you want to see the end of ALPA, I suggest you press the point as you would pit all mainline carriers against their regionals. But since we're on the single transportation system, why didn't you include all the regionals under our colors? Republic? Mesa? Chautauqua? Et.AL. I think even Doug is smart enough to keep that from happening. You can try, but the cards are so stacked against you on this to make it a non event.

Now to the MDA pilots. The dirty little secret between ALPA and the company is being played out in the court system as we speak. Maybe you can explain how the MDA pilots were included on the Nicolau list if, as you say, they were not part of the mainline? Simple answer is, they were. Hence the cover-up and lawsuits. Enough said. The court system will determine your answer.

As for the shuttle pilots. You are really grasping now. The shuttle pilots are working under a current list. Not the pipe dream you so want to get included in a joint contract. No need to even address that BS. By bringing it up, you really have no clue, do you? The only way Nic will ever become reality is for ALPA to get a joint agreement. Not going to happen by the time USAPA is elected.

 

[exB717Flyer]

_______________________________________________________________

Actually you will go to the unemployment line......or pay your dues, we are a closed shop...

Just to clear up a common misconception:

Open Shop = no union membership required nor any dues or fees
Closed Shop = union membership required
Agency Shop = no union membership required but Agency Fee is required

I believe every unionized US airline is an Agency Shop now. The APA was an open shop until 2003 but is now agency. The exact amount of Agency Fee is determined by a yearly audit and typically comes out to around 85% of full dues. So being a nonmember means still paying almost full dues but not getting to vote. Such a deal!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the wholly owned airlines get paid by USAir also since they are entirely owned, operated and managed by USAir?
Another question since you brought up certificates. How can the AWA pilots working under a different certificate for about two years since the buyout have time count towards seniority with USAPA and not pilots flying for the wholly owned regionals under a different cerrtificate? If a wholly owned pilot begins flying an airbus for USAirways are you going to reject his original DOH under the USAir umbrella? In the end an AWA pilot wasn't hired by the same hiring comittee as a USAir east pilot or a Piedmont DASH-8 pilot. Please explain because I found no direction on the USAirlinepilots.org website. It is filled with rosy promises and devoid of any answers to these issues.

Yep. Your wrong. The wholly owns are their own entities. Separate managements, separate everything. Purposefully set up for the express purpose of keeping from happening what you now advocate. Go ahead, please try to set the precedent. You can watch ALPA implode on itself. Prater would still have no clue to solve it.

You are still grasping and it won't work. But when you can come up with something plausible, feel free to post again.

 

[exB717Flyer]

What's the point of merger policy in the Constitution and ByLaws if it has no bearing outside of ALPA i.e. arbitration?

Interesting point. So I guess you also have a problem with our nation's legal system being reliant on judges and juries? If only the laws were written better there would be no need for courts, right? Puh-leeze. There will always be disagreements on interpretation of policies and the fairest way to settle them is by a neutral party.

You can stop dancing around the issue. You don't really have a problem with arbitration; you have a problem with anything other than what benefits a relatively old pilot group: DOH. I clearly stated my support for arbitration long before Nicolau ruled and when I had no idea what was coming. I don't recall ONE Eastie complaining about the process prior to last May. Funny how ALPA Merger Policy suddenly became so unfair when you disagreed with its outcome.

 

[prechilill]

Wondering when someone would bring these points up. Thanks.
Chose to be in ALPA? What are we trying to choose now? That is about the most stupid statement I have seen in a long time.

Excuse my ignorance and "stupid question". I was just making a point that your pilot group chose to go into this merger with ALPA as your bargaining agent. That issue cannot be denied, just avoided like you did in your usual manner of posting.


Now to the MDA pilots. The dirty little secret between ALPA and the company is being played out in the court system as we speak. Maybe you can explain how the MDA pilots were included on the Nicolau list if, as you say, they were not part of the mainline? Simple answer is, they were. Hence the cover-up and lawsuits. Enough said. The court system will determine your answer.

As for the shuttle pilots. You are really grasping now. The shuttle pilots are working under a current list. Not the pipe dream you so want to get included in a joint contract. No need to even address that BS. By bringing it up, you really have no clue, do you? The only way Nic will ever become reality is for ALPA to get a joint agreement. Not going to happen by the time USAPA is elected.

Thanks for not answering the questions, except you forgot to mention the little point that the MDA pilots listed on the seniority document as being in a furloughed status from USAir, just like all other furloughed pilots. And since the company and ALPA agreed to keeping the MDA pilots separate, how can that be grounds for a (floundering) lawsuit now when ALPA and the company have also agreed to keep the wholly owned pilots separate? IF the MDA pilots really had a case then wouldn't the WO also have a case?
The shuttle pilots were slotted, were they not? So they are not going to have their seniority adjusted but all of the AWA guys will. I see now this USAPA effort is soley directed at the America West pilots. Thanks for your eloquent clarification.

Here is some advice: being a fifty-something floundering FO at a humpty dumpty airline is no way to go through life.

 

[sharktooth]

I doubt you can disprove any, though you may try to defend the indefensible. It's U-SAPS stock and trade.

Um, sorry, nothing to prove or disprove.

Is it possible you are mature enough to understand that the issues the US east pilots have is with ALPA and not you? Until you learn it is rarely, if ever, about you, your posts will generally be incoherent.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Thanks for not answering the questions, except you forgot to mention the little point that the MDA pilots listed on the seniority document as being in a furloughed status from USAir, just like all other furloughed pilots. And since the company and ALPA agreed to keeping the MDA pilots separate, how can that be grounds for a (floundering) lawsuit now when ALPA and the company have also agreed to keep the wholly owned pilots separate? IF the MDA pilots really had a case then wouldn't the WO also have a case?
The shuttle pilots were slotted, were they not? So they are not going to have their seniority adjusted but all of the AWA guys will. I see now this USAPA effort is soley directed at the America West pilots. Thanks for your eloquent clarification.

Here is some advice: being a fifty-something floundering FO at a humpty dumpty airline is no way to go through life.

I answered your questions earlier, just not the answers you were trying to lead me into. you sound like the Wilson polls with their leading, geared to a false conclusion answer.

Humpty Dumpty Airline I'll expect your tendered resignation as soon as possible, since you're part of US now. If properly managed by anyone who cared, it would make us all a lot of money. But alas, all we are doing is spinning our wheels with ALPA. Forever sliding backward while our member brothers are waiting for our demise. BTW. What was DAL's ALPA brothers supported business plan in 2002? Lots of help there.

You are still grasping. Lets see, prearbitration=ALPA. Ooops lets call it all off so we can change unions. Sorry, your arguments are total BS again. But keep trying.

Please check out the bottom of the Nic list, East pilots hired in '04. OMG How could that happen? Never furloughed but still on the Nic list just the same as being furloughed. Quite the dilemma for you to reconcile. Maybe you should file a challenge to the Nic list to have it tossed for not being accurate. But floundering? Not hardly. The ante has been or will be raised to $175m. Only 2 motions before the court that I know of, ALPA's to dismiss and the new claim. But I'm not a court watcher so my information is second hand.

No USAPA isn't directed solely toward the west. Its directed at all pilots. East and west. Too bad you are still mired in the mother ship ALPA double speak. Your participation is of course totally up to you.

As for the WO's. Asked and previously answered, too bad you didn't like the answer.

 

[prechilill]

I answered your questions earlier, just not the anwers you were trying to lead me into. you sound like the Wilson polls with their leading, geared to a false conclusion answer.

Well, you have failed to convince anyone from the west, save a few morons, that USAPA stands for fairness for all when USAPA will allow a slotted Shuttle pilot keep their position but not an AWA pilot. Seems you guys are missing a little on the logic front. But good look in your fruitless efforts.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

There will always be disagreements on interpretation of policies and the fairest way to settle them is by a neutral party.

True. But not with the ability to just do what they want. That's what policy is all about. To disregard ALPA merger policy in an ALPA arbitration is absurd at the very least. But keep trying. As I said somewhere, trying to lead me to the answer your wanting is not going to happen.

You can stop dancing around the issue. You don't really have a problem with arbitration; you have a problem with anything other than what benefits a relatively old pilot group: DOH. I clearly stated my support for arbitration long before Nicolau ruled and when I had no idea what was coming. I don't recall ONE Eastie complaining about the process prior to last May. Funny how ALPA Merger Policy suddenly became so unfair when you disagreed with its outcome.

I'm not dancing around anything. I always have had a problem with arbitration dating back to Kagel. Including merger policy. That's the problem with ALPA merger policy. Or "guidelines". Either way, it should never have to go to arbitration in the first place. The only thing to decide is protections and/or fences if necessary. Simple, easy and very little waste of money. Or is that too simple of a concept to grasp as a trained ALPA clone.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Well, you have failed to convince anyone from the west, save a few morons, that USAPA stands for fairness for all when USAPA will allow a slotted Shuttle pilot keep their position but not an AWA pilot. Seems you guys are missing a little on the logic front. But good look in your fruitless efforts.

The shuttle is old news. Asked and answered. My best guess is, after the election, the process of electing the block reps will begin. If you want to participate in USAPA or not, that is a choice also.

Our logic? That's the problem isn't it? Because we won't be a mirror image of ALPA you can't seem to understand why not. I propose to you that our logic is just fine, it's you that needs to rethink the fact that mother-ship ALPA won't be along to carry you. What are you afraid of? That you just might have to make a decision for yourself!

"Morons"?. I love the character assassinations that is condoned by ALPA members. Seems Junebug taught me that and I see he is now on the save ALPA committee. BTW. I like the "Look" of my efforts just fine.

 

[exB717Flyer]

To disregard ALPA merger policy in an ALPA arbitration is absurd at the very least.

That sentence doesn't make sense because it's the job of the arbitrator to determine how to administer said policy. Not you, not me, not Prater, not the EC, EB, USAPA, nor even a federal court judge. I know you feel your opinion holds the force of law but that doesn't make it so.

The only thing to decide is protections and/or fences if necessary. Simple, easy and very little waste of money.

Wow, so simple. Reminds me of "justice" in the former Soviet Union. Shoot or imprison anybody accused of a crime and you don't have to worry about messy trials. Seems you share in their vision of fairness. I'll give you simple: if Nicolau felt that DOH/LOS was fair he would've ruled that way. It's funny how the intial East response last May was that Nicolau is senile, corrupt, and/or insane. When that didn't stick it was time to find another scapegoat: ALPA Merger Policy. Yeah, that's what's wrong. Who are you gonna blame next?

Or is that too simple of a concept to grasp as a trained ALPA clone.

So dissapointing! Are you turning into another EastUS, Nostradamus, etc. clone, spewing bitter vitriol, who ran out of sentient arguments long ago? So I'm an ALPA clone, incapable of independent thought and you're a Enlightened One? Right. Everybody knows USAPA's only raison d'etre is to benefit the East at the West's expense. Dissing ALPA is a convenient deflection. Everybody knows!

 

[TechBoy]

The shuttle is old news. Asked and answered.

Answered where? I didn't see an answer.

So here is a simple question for the USAPA advocates: if DOH is sacrosanct, why does it not apply to the Shuttle pilots?

Is it because the Shuttle pilots got their slotting through an ALPA process? But wait, isn't that what the AWA pilots got too . . .