US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/26- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Ames]

Another concessionary contract will pass??!! Maybe out west, but I don't think so....it's only what, a 3% raise for the westies. What a slap in the face for being such loyal company doobies. I'd be insulted with that offer.
The 15% raise figure for the east is misleading. Really, it's parity + 3%, and parity is what everyone on the east side should have had from the time this deal was done. Thanks again , ALPA (insert scarcasm here).
What do the pilots have to give up for this small raise? THAT is the question. Look beyond the $$ rate, grasshopper, and you will find the real reason the management shills on this board want us to pass Kirby.
Sorry, but when all the facts are displayed, Kirby is a stinker, and needs to be flushed, and forgotten. They can do much better than that.
Cheers.

Put it to a vote and prove it. That's all I am saying.

 

[Ames]

Didn't see your question, actually.

I have 24 years.

That's fourteen years difference.

Doesn't matter.

I'm not "jerking the gear" for a guy fourteen yeaars my junior.

Instead, I'm competing on the open market and undercutting you guys.

Period. I'm encouraging every junior pilot, as well as pilot on the street to do so as well.

See you the fight line.

My point is that you claimed to be below a 5 year west guy - 19 years. Now you're saying a 14 year difference. Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you so easily exaggerate the facts? Where I come from that's called lying. So, you refuse to jerk gear for a guy like me? See ya! Don't need your arrogance in my cockpit anyway. You're competing on the open market? I'll remember to return your greeting at Wal Mart.

Fortunately I believe that most east pilots are not represented by your type, which is why I challenge the CBA to put Kirby to a vote. I, personally would not vote for it but would like to see the VNIIMN crowd put their money where their mouths are.

 

[veritasaequitas]

Fortunately I believe that most east pilots are not represented by your type, which is why I challenge the CBA to put Kirby to a vote. I, personally would not vote for it but would like to see the VNIIMN crowd put their money where their mouths are.

Your West pilot PHX domicile leaders disagree with you about the Kirby proposal. A quote from the West pilots PHX domicile update of April 3rd.

The company wants back what you were overpaid in training.

"After two years, Management has alleged that they had made yet another mistake, this time in calculating our training pay. And they want it back, right now. If they cannot make a profit from running the operation they figure they can get it from the employees. Someone from the 9th floor has decided that, along with everything else they have taken from us, they are going to collect about $2200 in overpayments from ALL PHX Captains and about $1500 from ALL PHX F/O’s".

"If we look at this from an overall perspective and for ease of calculation, we normally get paid 1000 hours of credit per year. So to repay the Company’s alleged mistake, without negotiations mind you, they want to hand us a $2.20 per hour pay cut. In the Kirby proposal they were only offering a paltry and unacceptable 3% raise or $4.35 per hour. I don’t know about the rest of the pilots on this property, but a net swing decrease of $6.55 an hour is completely unacceptable. "

Do you still want the Kirby proposal put out to a vote?

 

[nic4us]

Being that you did not respond to my last challenge to this statement I looked at it from a different perspective. The most junior east pilot with a 1981 hire date (24 years DOH on "merger day") has a west pilot with a 1997 DOH. That's 8 years, not five.

If you are meaning to say you have 24 years as of now, your DOH would be 1986. The junior most east pilot with that DOH has a west pilot with a DOH of 2000 above him - that's 10 years.

Try to avoid running amok with your facts.

I do not know what list either of you are using, but on the Nicolau seniority list, the most junior east pilot with 24 years on the date of the merger was hired in 1981, and is placed one above a West pilot hired 5-27-1985, a difference of 4 years. By the way, that West pilot is 5 years older than the east pilot plasce above him.

 

[Poug Darker]

Put it to a vote and prove it. That's all I am saying.

Put what exactly out to a vote. There ain't nothing to vote on. That's all I'm sayin'.
When there is a CREDIBLE offer I'm sure there will be a vote.
Is Kirby credible. Definitely not. Not even close. Not even in the same universe.
SOOOOOOO Far away, you can't even see it. Looks like a teensy tiny pinprick from here.
Oh, did I mention it was CONCESSIONARY?
That means, boys and girls, that you actually lose money and working conditions and lifestyle things, instead of getting more.
More is better, no?
When a contract proposal is offered that has MORE in it instead of LESS, it is a good thing.
When a contract proposal is offered with LESS in it, it is a BAD thing.
Kirby = LESS = BAD = NO VOTE
Ya gotta spell it out for the kids, they just don't get it.
Next!

 

[nic4us]

are you dropping damages if awarded.

Thought of a solution to this the other day. The company pays it in the form of retro pay to placate the West pilots. West pilots get retro to when our contract became amendable ( 2006?), east pilots get the new payscale ( a much bigger percentage increase) to payscales that only recently became amendable(1-1-10), and do not have to pay assessments for damages. Problem still remains that there is no longer a West representational body at the bargaining table to cut any deals.

 

[Poug Darker]

Thought of a solution to this the other day. The company pays it in the form of retro pay to placate the West pilots. West pilots get retro to when our contract became amendable ( 2006?), east pilots get the new payscale ( a much bigger percentage increase) to payscales that only recently became amendable(1-1-10), and do not have to pay assessments for damages. Problem still remains that there is no longer a West representational body at the bargaining table to cut any deals.

Retro wages? You have a new wage rate since 2006? What new payscale are we speaking of?
Sounds like a looooong reach to fantasy land for this one....the first and foremost thinking the company will pay anything to anyone without kicking and screaming.
Time to resume the meds, dude.
Nice try, though.

 

[luvn737s]

Put what exactly out to a vote. There ain't nothing to vote on. That's all I'm sayin'.
When there is a CREDIBLE offer I'm sure there will be a vote.
Is Kirby credible. Definitely not. Not even close. Not even in the same universe.
SOOOOOOO Far away, you can't even see it. Looks like a teensy tiny pinprick from here.
Oh, did I mention it was CONCESSIONARY?
That means, boys and girls, that you actually lose money and working conditions and lifestyle things, instead of getting more.
More is better, no?
When a contract proposal is offered that has MORE in it instead of LESS, it is a good thing.
When a contract proposal is offered with LESS in it, it is a BAD thing.
Kirby = LESS = BAD = NO VOTE
Ya gotta spell it out for the kids, they just don't get it.
Next!

USAPA is unable to do any better than Kirby. They've had 2 years. Their behavior makes them unworthy of wasting the company's time. It all comes down to the man at the top, the one who set the tone for the union and establishes it's credibility. Let me spell it out for you: C-L-E-A-R-Y.

So all the chest thumpers in CLT/DCA who support Cleary and validate his salt-the-earth rapport with management are the folks who make us rely on the generosity of said management to achieve any gains.

Sounds like a complete waste of money supporting such an organization.

 

[veritasaequitas]

Thought of a solution to this the other day. The company pays it in the form of retro pay to placate the West pilots. West pilots get retro to when our contract became amendable ( 2006?), east pilots get the new payscale ( a much bigger percentage increase) to payscales that only recently became amendable(1-1-10), and do not have to pay assessments for damages. Problem still remains that there is no longer a West representational body at the bargaining table to cut any deals.

A quote from the West pilots PHX domicile update of April 3rd. The companies version of a pay scale to placate the West pilots. The following is their idea of placating you.

The company wants back what you were overpaid in training.

"After two years, Management has alleged that they had made yet another mistake, this time in calculating our training pay. And they want it back, right now. If they cannot make a profit from running the operation they figure they can get it from the employees. Someone from the 9th floor has decided that, along with everything else they have taken from us, they are going to collect about $2200 in overpayments from ALL PHX Captains and about $1500 from ALL PHX F/O’s".

 

[luvn737s]

A quote from the West pilots PHX domicile update of April 3rd. The companies version of a pay scale to placate the West pilots. The following is their idea of placating you.

The company wants back what you were overpaid in training.

This needs to go through the grievance process just like anything else.

Strange how silent Cleary has been on this. Perhaps he's out on a lonely Carolina back road with our Taurus (more like TAR US) trying to come to some acceptance of his failure as a labor leader.

One would think that the president of a union found guilty of not fairly representing ALL the pilots would at least make some effort to show that he is willing to change his ways. In an odd way though, he may be demonstrating some integrity in that he really DOESN'T care about a single west pilot and refuses to pretend otherwise.

 

[veritasaequitas]

This needs to go through the grievance process just like anything else.

Pay comes out first, you grieve it later. The following is a quote from the PHX update;

"Management now enjoys the spoils of the destruction, while we are left with the long grievance and arbitration process."

"The plan of attack to recoup Management’s alleged mistake is to repay it over 4 bid periods or 8 pay checks. For Captains it will be $550 per month straight out of our pockets. F/O’s expect about $375 taken from your already tiny paychecks, starting in May. Here is another little kick in the head - if you are a downbid Captain, plan on paying the Captain rate back at your lower F/O wages. (Plus, we still do not know how they are going to handle the taxes. We paid taxes originally when we were paid but now the Company wants us to repay their mistake with AFTER tax dollars. Even though taxes will eventually be worked out, possibly a year or two later, it will come out of our pockets now.)"

I do not like to see this happen to anyone. Time for you guys to show the East pilots how to handle such a thing.

 

[flyinawa]

Time for you guys to show the East pilots how to handle such a thing.

I think USAPA should take out another full page in USAToday. Who's with me?

 

[end_of_alpa]

I think USAPA should take out another full page in USAToday. Who's with me?

Not me. I like good ole fashioned competition.

You think your time is more valuable than mine, I guess the company thinks so too. they've come to get more money!

See you on the flight line

 

[end_of_alpa]

I have told you the truth and if you choose not to believe it than I am not going to change your mind.

Have fun with those conspiracy theories.

What piques my interest is exactly how much "pilots" rely on outside "legal" counsel to help guide their future.

I come here for my reasons as a pilot, you come here for yours???.

You're "truth" doesn't add up. No amount of lawsuit is going to do do anything but ultimately bankrupt what's left of the unity (NOT UNION), which is what the West is doing to the group as a whole. Blame? I call it as WE, the EASt pilots, see it. Bankrupt USAPA, their is no such thing as "individual" damages. Won't get a nickel out of me. I know there doing it out of ignorance, my burnng question is, WHY YOU???

No CBA, no contract, no nic, no nothing. Look at what the West component is complaining of against the company. Payroll deductions for training??
Why will YOU not tell them the FACT that if there is NO damages if there is no MONEY!!

That is what I'm saying. You may be trying to "opine" about your "truths", I just find it humorous how you'll "opine" on truths to win THEIR accolades but "opineng" on other "truths", at least from YOU, are silent.

"After two years, Management has alleged that they had made yet another mistake, this time in calculating our training pay. And they want it back, right now. If they cannot make a profit from running the operation they figure they can get it from the employees. Someone from the 9th floor has decided that, along with everything else they have taken from us, they are going to collect about $2200 in overpayments from ALL PHX Captains and about $1500 from ALL PHX F/O’s."

Don't cry to EAST pilots to help you, we're so unfair!!!

That's not the only "9th" that's going to "rain on the parade". The judges need time to read and understand the case. I believe they're doing a THOUROUGH job of reviewing. In the mean time, Tic toc, Tic toc.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Pay comes out first, you grieve it later. The following is a quote from the PHX update;

"Management now enjoys the spoils of the destruction, while we are left with the long grievance and arbitration process."

"The plan of attack to recoup Management’s alleged mistake is to repay it over 4 bid periods or 8 pay checks. For Captains it will be $550 per month straight out of our pockets. F/O’s expect about $375 taken from your already tiny paychecks, starting in May. Here is another little kick in the head - if you are a downbid Captain, plan on paying the Captain rate back at your lower F/O wages. (Plus, we still do not know how they are going to handle the taxes. We paid taxes originally when we were paid but now the Company wants us to repay their mistake with AFTER tax dollars. Even though taxes will eventually be worked out, possibly a year or two later, it will come out of our pockets now.)"

I do not like to see this happen to anyone. Time for you guys to show the East pilots how to handle such a thing.

Not me. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.