US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/19- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Metroyet]

Veritas ran out of arguments, its pretty sad and pathetic to see what he posts now.

He is just trying to get a rise out of people now. Typical trollish behavior.

But, since I'm not a pilot and you don't work for AWA, in his mind, we can't post here.

The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Just because I don't get a paycheck from either airline doesn't mean I don't get EXACTLY what is going on here and what the East is trying to perpetrate against the West. I actually am an airline pilot and USAPA makes me Sick and for how ALPA treated the HP pilots, I have no love for them either. The West was cut loose and set adrift. The East and the Company hoped they'd just quietly drown. It's an understatement to say, "that didn't happen". Every time USAPA get's in shoved back up their nether regions I have to laugh. This is their Mess, they can't clean it up, and they think the entire world is too stupid to see it. Welcome to North Korea.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Just because I don't get a paycheck from either airline doesn't mean I don't get EXACTLY what is going on here and what the East is trying to perpetrate against the West. I actually am an airline pilot and USAPA makes me Sick and for how ALPA treated the HP pilots, I have no love for them either. The West was cut loose and set adrift. The East and the Company hoped they'd just quietly drown. It's an understatement to say, "that didn't happen". Every time USAPA get's in shoved back up their nether regions I have to laugh. This is their Mess, they can't clean it up, and they think the entire world is too stupid to see it. Welcome to North Korea.

Beautiful. I spent 14 years at AWA in management, I liked it, but I left to move up and make more money. I have a keen interest in Labor Relations, and have a good deal of training in the subject. I see the travesty that the east is trying to pull and it sickens me. Typical entitlement minded goon squad garbage. They can't weenie out of binding arbitration, and every time I bring it up, they dodge the question.

Its like when my dog does something wrong, and he knows it, and I yell and he won't look me in the eye. They know they are wrong, but cognitive dissonance is powerful.

 

[TheBadCat1313]

There was no arbitration in AA/TWA merger. As a pre-condition of getting bought by AMR, the TWA pilots waived the section of their scope clause that gave them process protections during a merger.

You're right, there was NO arbitration. It was actually the successorship clause that was waived. All employee groups at TWA did this, but only after AA had obtained control of the company with debtor-in-possession financing and threatened to have the courts throw out the entire labor agreements under chapter 1113 BK if we did'nt. USAirways folks should understand this, as it was the same section of BK law that was used to threaten and intimidate them into losing their pensions.

Therefore the SLI was conducted under an agreement where all three parties (including AMR management) would attempt to come to a negotiated solution. If that failed, then the APA would get to build the list themselves. The TWA pilots managed the process horribly, initially demanding Date of Hire (sound familiar?). At one point they tried to get legislation introduced mandating Date of Hire for their case. Obviously, this failed and they succeeded only in stirring up a hornet's nest. In the end, the APA came up with their virtual staple job and fences.

Mostly true, although the TWA pilots did back down from the DOH position, which really would have been a windfall for them. They hired a consultant to devise a list that reflected the demographics of both pilot groups, nicknamed the "rightful place proposal". It was DOH in some places, ratioed in others and stapled the bottom 130 TWA pilots. It was very similar in methodology to what Nicolau used, and the APA pilots laughed at it and dismissed it summarily. THIS IS IMPORTANT: The legislation that the TWA pilots sought did NOT seek DOH, only that Allegeheny-Mohawk labor protective provisions be applied to the merger, and that an arbitrator be allowed to decide seniority. The TWA pilots would have killed for the opportunity to have George Nicolau hear the case and decide their fate (and still would).

Now, of course, the TWA pilots are suing ALPA because they have money. They ignored every piece of advice that national ALPA gave them, but still it is National ALPA's fault (sound familiar?).

Again, mostly true. The TWA MEC did not realize that they had no leverage, and if they had, there would have been a slightly better deal available. There are, however, some really lingering questions as to how loyal ALPA National was to the TWA pilots and whether more could have been done in light of the fact that they had for years been actively courting the APA to come back to ALPA. That is what the lawsuit is about.

This cram-down by the APA (and the flight attendants did the same thing) is the reason for the Bond-McCaskill legislation that mandates that every group get access to the Neg/Med/Arb process laid out in the Allegheny/Mohawk labor protective provisions. And, no, those LPP's do not mandate date of hire, the standard is "fair and equitable" (sound familiar?).

Agreed. And if AA ever merges with another carrier, that same legislation will probably screw the former TWA employees again. It's still the right thing to do, though.

The lesson to be learned is that you are much better off negotiating from a realistic set of goals and expectations rather than digging into an untenable situation and then refusing to move. (sound familiar?)

Yep.

It should be noted that TWA was not IN bankruptcy when the merger with AA was announced. The BK was a pre-packaged deal that was planned for and arranged for a year prior to the takeover to void certain contracts that AA did not want. This, as opposed to the condition of US in early 2005 where they were on their 2nd trip through BK in a few years and facing certain liquidation. Still, The Nicolau award was much, much kinder to the US pilots than what the TWA pilots got.

BTW, someone stated that TWA had "many, many" trips through BK. Not true. There were two.

 

[redrocknowcatusnowUSAir]

You're right, there was NO arbitration. It was actually the successorship clause that was waived. All employee groups at TWA did this, but only after AA had obtained control of the company with debtor-in-possession financing and threatened to have the courts throw out the entire labor agreements under chapter 1113 BK if we did'nt. USAirways folks should understand this, as it was the same section of BK law that was used to threaten and intimidate them into losing their pensions.


Mostly true, although the TWA pilots did back down from the DOH position, which really would have been a windfall for them. They hired a consultant to devise a list that reflected the demographics of both pilot groups, nicknamed the "rightful place proposal". It was DOH in some places, ratioed in others and stapled the bottom 130 TWA pilots. It was very similar in methodology to what Nicolau used, and the APA pilots laughed at it and dismissed it summarily. THIS IS IMPORTANT: The legislation that the TWA pilots sought did NOT seek DOH, only that Allegeheny-Mohawk labor protective provisions be applied to the merger, and that an arbitrator be allowed to decide seniority. The TWA pilots would have killed for the opportunity to have George Nicolau hear the case and decide their fate (and still would).


Again, mostly true. The TWA MEC did not realize that they had no leverage, and if they had, there would have been a slightly better deal available. There are, however, some really lingering questions as to how loyal ALPA National was to the TWA pilots and whether more could have been done in light of the fact that they had for years been actively courting the APA to come back to ALPA. That is what the lawsuit is about.


Agreed. And if AA ever merges with another carrier, that same legislation will probably screw the former TWA employees again. It's still the right thing to do, though.


Yep.

It should be noted that TWA was not IN bankruptcy when the merger with AA was announced. The BK was a pre-packaged deal that was planned for and arranged for a year prior to the takeover to void certain contracts that AA did not want. This, as opposed to the condition of US in early 2005 where they were on their 2nd trip through BK in a few years and facing certain liquidation. Still, The Nicolau award was much, much kinder to the US pilots than what the TWA pilots got.

BTW, someone stated that TWA had "many, many" trips through BK. Not true. There were two.

 

[redrocknowcatusnowUSAir]

The damage done by the East will never be resolved. Although I was once willing to work towards a common goal, it is clear there will never be a common goal with these permanently damaged, ungratefull employee's. They can keep their anger, hatred, and unhappiness for themselves. I can see now that they deserve it.
My job does not define whom I am. My happiness does not come from my job. My life is what brings happiness to me. And my life is not USAirways or the problems the East has brought to the table.
In the 5 or so years since this merger I have seen the negativity and unhappiness from everyone on the East trying to take down the West.
Try as you may, you will never take who I am or my happiness. Or how I do my job. But you will rot in your own misery.
You had an opportunity for peace with us.
You have blown it every step of the way.
Except for a few that I know from the city that I commute, every East pilot will always be considered a scumbag scab in my book.
To hell with you people.
You had a chance for peace.
Unless you drop the lawsuites against the Cactus 18, and start to act like a real union, representing everyone, without prejudice, and stop censoring union communications, there never, ever, will be a peace.
I garontee.
A man can seek his own misery. Or his happiness.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The damage done by the East will never be resolved. Although I was once willing to work towards a common goal, it is clear there will never be a common goal with these permanently damaged, ungratefull employee's. They can keep their anger, hatred, and unhappiness for themselves. I can see now that they deserve it.
My job does not define whom I am. My happiness does not come from my job. My life is what brings happiness to me. And my life is not USAirways or the problems the East has brought to the table.
In the 5 or so years since this merger I have seen the negativity and unhappiness from everyone on the East trying to take down the West.
Try as you may, you will never take who I am or my happiness. Or how I do my job. But you will rot in your own misery.
You had an opportunity for peace with us.
You have blown it every step of the way.
Except for a few that I know from the city that I commute, every East pilot will always be considered a scumbag scab in my book.
To hell with you people.
You had a chance for peace.
Unless you drop the lawsuites against the Cactus 18, and start to act like a real union, representing everyone, without prejudice, and stop censoring union communications, there never, ever, will be a peace.
I garontee.
A man can seek his own misery. Or his happiness.

Yeah - we can all see what a happy camper you are.

 

[EastUS]

I'd have some sympathy, and perhaps hand you a kleenex next time you'd like to Sob about being oppressed by LOA 93 except there is one small fact holding me back.

That's laughable to the point of honestly being side-splitting, as I've not the least personal, selfish concerns with the pay rates as they are....but; thank you for very thickly layering the icing on to my rebuttal to the west person who's absurdly fantasized claim was that not ANY west person wanted anything other than to see the east pay improved.

 

[EastUS]

Beautiful. I spent 14 years at AWA in management.....

This explains much......on every level possible.

 

[EastUS]

Yeah - we can all see what a happy camper you are.

No joke there. In fairness though, I completely agree with his/her observation: "My job does not define whom I am. My happiness does not come from my job. My life is what brings happiness to me. And my life is not USAirways..."

 

[cleardirect]

That's laughable to the point of honestly being side-splitting, as I've not the least personal, selfish concerns with the pay rates as they are....but; thank you for very thickly layering the icing on to my rebuttal to the west person who's absurdly fantasized claim was that not ANY west person wanted anything other than to see the east pay improved.

This seems to be one of the problems with you east guys. Tunnel vision. Yes today most west pilots think that the east can wallow in your BK, bottom of the barrel, drag down the rest of the industry wages.


What you forget or ignore is that the west supported pay parity when we first got together. Maybe you remember the coast to coast pickets? That was 2005, 2006 and part of 2007. Then the Nicolau happened and the east pull out of joint negotiations, and stated quite clearly that you wanted pay parity and once you got that would NEVER sign a contract to implement the Nicolau.

You brought it on yourself. You the east pilots destroyed the solidarity and any support the west was offering. The LOA 93 grievance is just a continuance of that same policy, you get yours leave the west behind and NEVER agree to a joint contract.

Heck even during the Addington trial Seham tried to convince the judge to let USAPA negotiate an east contract separate than come back sometime in the future and try for the west. The judge saw through that and stopped it.

The east has no one to blame for your problems or lack of support except yourselves. So you can play that game about the west not supporting you but don’t leave out the background facts. People are only willing to put up with so much and after you spit in their faces a couple of times, that support goes away.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The one that cracks me up is doesn't want anything from the EAST but commutes from there, hear it over and over again, The RICO suite, I'll side with him there but I can understand why you want someone to pay for what WAS DONE! And as far as addington, well we'll just wait and see, regardless being out WEST all these years furloughed, from 2 other carriers if this franchise was valuable we would have expanded, made tons of money , and ventured out and I cryed when the columbus hub experiment failed, what great mngmnt! MM! PS, CLEAR why do you think the EAST voted away ALPA they got tired of being spit at!

 

[psw737]

Sorry to change the subject here but I was wondering if anyone has heard the rumor going around regarding recalls late spring and summer. I have heard from various types of sources both east and west over the past two days that something is in the works. I was just wondering what you all are hearing out on the line. Hopefully the rumor is true for us guys out on the street.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I have a lot more respect for 700UW than a certain smug, arrogant PHL based A330 Captain that is known to post on this forum.

I suspect that the A330 captain in question is not interested at all in what you think. As long as that captain has the respect of people whose opinions he values, I am certain that would be sufficient.

 

[700UW]

See I was very active in my union, was a shop steward, attended every training class at the IAM's education center in MD, served as the district communicator as well as the editior for my local, was trained by the man who organized the IAM at US and was a member of the negotiating committee, your job title is irrelevant to experience and education, but like a lot of pilots you believe your superior to everyone else, which makes you ignorant.

 

[luvn737s]

That's laughable to the point of honestly being side-splitting, as I've not the least personal, selfish concerns with the pay rates as they are....but; thank you for very thickly layering the icing on to my rebuttal to the west person who's absurdly fantasized claim was that not ANY west person wanted anything other than to see the east pay improved.

If the east pilots would wrest control from the Cleara Nostra that continues to embarass and imperil the members of USAPA, you would see the beef is with a union on a juggernaut to disenfranchise it's western constituents (members or not, it doesn't matter) not necessarily with the east pilots themselves.

Their failure to summon the courage to overthrow Cleary proves they are willing to tar themselves with his brand of self-serving devisiveness.

Now tell me why a west pilot ( or better yet an east pilot) should enthusiastically support such destructive behavior.

I am not totally sure you have been able to unpack the issues in this dispute.