US Pilot Labor Thread, Aug 25th-31th

[EastUS]

You think the results are going to be different this time?

Indeed I do sir. Time will tell. You're as fully entitled to your opinion as I am mine...but it seems that only one of us will be voting, at least from what you've said so far. Hmm...Apparently, I quoted a closing line prior to your editing. In any case; I say we all do wahtever we can to get the best deal possible, whether we're in "All Out Warfare" with the west "Spartans' or not....

 

[traderjake]

Why do you think the results will be different this time?

We have the same players and this time they are fighting management and 40% of the pilot group.

 

[Megasnoop]

Why do you think the results will be different this time?

Because ALPO isn't involved this time, Jake.

We have the same players and this time they are fighting management and 40% of the pilot group.

Aas long as 10% of east pilots and 80% of west pilots refuse to join the union, we'll have a more unified membership than when ALPO was in power. This crap about the RC 4 controlling USAPA. Please name 1 of the RC 4 holding a USAPA position.


Leo, you and your minions will get your day in court but it won't be this month or this year. It might not even be this decade. Unless you can pull a TRO out of the hat, your going to have to wait until the new contract and the new list is in place to DFR us. They take a long time. The TWA/AMR/ALPO DFR is now 7 years old. Billy Ford and his RJ Defense DFR took 9 years in the courts. they didn't win much. MDA is 4 years old and no end in sight. By the time you win as you claim, age attrition will be rolling again and you could control the union and have all the top slots anyway. Meanwhile, your own agency fee $$ will be funding our Leo defense. So you win. The company isn't going to give you back pay. You BK USAPA if they are still in but after all our attrition, you'll barely move up when compared to LOS with fences and attrition. If ALPO gets voted back in 21 months, do you really think they are going to reverse the single contract list and risk getting DFRed by the remaining East pilots? Remember, if ALPO comes back in, they do with clean hands. Their not going to mess with any list and risk a dFR. snoop

 

[L1011Ret]

Leo: "We know and understand that fact to the very core of our souls, but the justice system currently lacks that understanding, and it will not simply take our word for it- we will have to prove it." No kidding there...although I'm natrually surprised that any/all courts won't just take the Leo's word for anything...what ith all the vast, flowing rivers of "INTEGRITY" around there....

Leo: "Our day in court is coming." Any second now....tomorrow for sure....well..maybe next week/month.year/several years anyway....if ever.

Leo: "Additionally, we intend to bring the subject of “out-of-seniority furloughsâ€￾ before the court." Well....likely a long time after the MDA issue's finally adjudicated...stay tuned for further details and developments as they happen...and no = I mean nothing agoinst those set for furlough,a nd think that LOS should have trumped therein myself...LOS..not some Nic BS.

Leo: " If you are certain that you will suffer a measurable and quantifiable harm, then we invite you to consider using the grievance process,.."..." In the meantime, we can only expect USAPA to act to represent us fairly by properly addressing legitimate grievances when filed, and call them out for it if they do not." Translation into any semblance of coherent thought = Don't ever pay your dues, but use any/all Union processes and benefits to the max possible extent...Whew!..Now THERE's true "INTEGRITY" at work

Leo: "We would like to reiterate that we are commencing a legal campaign against those who have harmed the AWA pilots. We know that this generates much excitement among AWA pilots and their families,.." Must be a really slow day for any actual news out there...but hey!...Isn't it supposed to be "bad" for anyone to sue anyone? ..No matter = a shudder of fear's going to resonate throughout the entire east community immediately....

Leo: "The choice not to engage certain individuals via a message board is both by design and a conscientious decision, because it will do nothing to solve the problems we currently face as a pilot group, and only causes needless distraction." Translation = Said specious BS won't actually withstand the least scrutiny in the light of day. "needless distraction" = "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!..The Great and Powerful LeOz has spoken!"..

The latest from Leo in summary form = "Additionally, we intend.."...."We would like.."..."The recent request we made.."..."we simply wanted to go on record with the company"..."We know and understand that fact to the very core of our souls, but the justice system currently lacks that understanding, .."


Leo: "USAPA is now the collective bargaining agent" Enough said.

How pompus and condescending. I gather you are the only person left to live on the planet as anyone else's thoughts, opinions or beliefs have no value.

 

[BottomFeeder]

How pompus and condescending. I gather you are the only person left to live on the planet as anyone else's thoughts, opinions or beliefs have no value.

L1011Ret,

You just described yourself to a T. After checking out your past posts, it seems you are the pompus and condescending guy that does nothing but attack others all over these boards.

Get a life

 

[dariencc]

That it's so laughably ridiculous, and patently absurd for ANYBODY to equate an heroic King, self-sacrificing and fierce warriors, the ideals and tremendous self discipline needed to knowingly go to a gruesome and violent death on the battlefield, and the courage to actually do just exactly that....with any non-lethal, petty labor issues...well...enjoy the "heroic" fantasy out there in Leo-La-La-Land if it amuses any of you to do so, Little Kiddies and Lawyers Inc...

Dead on. In the interest of collegiality, however, let us offer an alternate title for the fearsome group, rather than simply tearing down for the sake of sport.

Out with the Army of Leonides.

In with the...................Navy of NiceLandingCaptain!

 

[PA18]

Who controlled the MEC when LOA 93 was negotiated?

The Role Call 4 hardliners.

Who negotiated LOA93?

Doug Mowery and the RC 4 hardliners.

The so-called Roll Call 4 (and not "Role" Call 4) futilely attempted to protect the rank-and-file from LOA 93.

Their effort was sabotaged by the "We need a deal, any deal", "Let My Daddy Vote" pants-wetters.

And it was management wannabe Donn Butkovic who did most of the negotiating capitulating on LOA 93. When he was finally fired from the NC, it was up to Mowery to hold his nose and do the road shows to present Donn & Jerry's masterpiece to the pilots. (Kind of like Colin Powell being set up at the UN by Shrub to justify the Iraq war.)

Of course, that conveniently allowed the "Yes Vote" weenies to blame Mowery for the entire agreement.

 

[ussnark]

Who controlled the MEC when LOA 93 was negotiated?

The Role Call 4 hardliners.

Who negotiated LOA93?

Doug Mowery and the RC 4 hardliners.

To get that little piece of history so wrong, you must have been off the property for six months and/or lived in a phone booth and no one knew your number.

In parliamentary procedure, I believe it is, "Roll Call", though, YMMV.

 

[electricjet98]

I understand your sentiments there. But...Well..for what it's worth, and coming from one who's launched his full, "fair" share of personal attacks myself..I find that the discussion level's been greatly improved of late, partly, I believe, due to your own earlier call for such sir, when addressing abloeoneable. "Ya' shoulda' seen tha' place immediately after Nic was announced"...and up untill very recently. Just the fact that any here can have even the least civil discourse nowadays reflects a huge change in the conversational climate. I certainly don't fantasize any wholesale agreement to ever occur, but it's sure nice to see many people actually expressing what's on their minds coherently, instead of immediately dropping to the "Yo Momma" level. There are certainly some interesting "cases" out there, but I'm not so much of the belief that they're representative of the general thought as I was in past times. I could be wrong

I agree! And thanks for your part in helping to put the brakes on "some" of the completely useless attacks. It's incumbant upon all of us who wish to move the process forward to rachet-down the self-promoting and vindictive rhetoric in our own posts.

 

[EastUS]

Dead on. In the interest of collegiality, however, let us offer an alternate title for the fearsome group, rather than simply tearing down for the sake of sport.

Out with the Army of Leonides.

In with the...................Navy of NiceLandingCaptain!

..Hmmm...Almost a bit cruel Bro, but...I gotta' admit that it works for me

 

[EastUS]

I agree! And thanks for your part in helping to put the brakes on "some" of the completely useless attacks. It's incumbant upon all of us who wish to move the process forward to rachet-down the self-promoting and vindictive rhetoric in our own posts.

No credit due myself there sir. I believe that Machtuck's properly credited with essentially asking to tone down some of the incessant, mutual "Up Yours!" that were the standard ops ROE...before getting a bit burned out by the Prechilled types himself I think. We've got ourselves a right fine mess on campus here, and until/unless some major attitude and perception changes occur, if ever, there's clearly zero chance for much real community sense to develop between west-east. I certainly don't have any magic answer for us all, and will just try to be generally decent to any/all who are willing to discuss things in any reasonable manner.

I clearly can't speak for any out west, or really even any out east other than myself, but...it's my full sense that the east has completely had it's fill with the "All Out Warfare" coming from the west....period. If it's truly the west's intent to sabotage at every chance, by any means possible, and establish some bogus "position" for some fantasized/maybe some day/somewhere-over-the-rainbow DFR...well...the west may get their perverse wishes, by making an entirely polarized east group, that wakes up soon and finds themselves completely "fine" with just throwing the west under the bus. That day has not yet come, and I certainly hope that it doesn't. People's buttons can only be pushed just so hard, and only for just so long......

My personal beliefs are that emotions should never triumph over principles, but, as evidenced throughout history..they often do in any group scenarios. The utterly amazing displays of outright hatred and contempt from the west group have not been without their cumulative effects out east.

 

[machtuck]

Nice exchange...I'd add just a few thoughts, then I gotta go.

With the notable exception of about 5 or 6 west posters...I have learned that it is indeed possible, AND GOOD, to have the types of dialogue we have seen in the last few days. We may not agree, and the truth is, we don't have to...what we need to do is understand each other.

It is, no doubt, very easy to get emotionally charged over current events...on both sides. I commute cross-country to reserve status on the bus in PHL...I don't like to commute...nobody does. But, by the same token, I don't want any west pilots job...or seat. So, I do the commute with my mouth shut.

I have read remarks from certain west posters that cannot make the same statement. And that is bothersome...to me, and probably every other east pilot. Attacks and questionable behavior do nothing but paint a very poor picture of the west pilot group...and that is unfair to them as a whole....from what I've seen and those I've met...

I will continue to engage any dialogue in a reasonable manner, but I will not apologize for reacting to the continual bombardments from the most caustic west posters...it's unhealthy, and serves no purpose but to throw fuel on a smoldering fire.

If you want to have civil exchanges of opinions, I'm in, but once it goes personal or blatantly argumentative....I'm gone.

 

[luvthe9]

I don't want any west pilots job...or seat. So, I do the commute with my mouth shut.

That's what I just don't get with the west. Nobody on the east wants to take away a seat from anyone out west, yet they all seem to think they are entitled to our jobs and are flying out here. I guess if another merger goes through with UAL they will want all of they wide body flying also. Nice post by the way

 

[machtuck]

Yessir...that's my read of things by way of a few posters...now, I know thats not true for all of our friends out west...but the vocal group has made their intentions clear going forward...who they lead and represent is still a little unclear...I hope they don't speak for everybody out west.

I'm giving EVERY other west pilot the benefit of the doubt that will not be the case...until they prove me wrong.

I should add that I'm not feeble-minded enough to think that Leo and his "army" are going to back down quietly. He/they have made certain "promises" to the constituency out west about prevailing over and 'destroying the enemy"

( I guess thats us...)

Funny, only my ex-wife has held such strong disdain over my occupation on the planet...and I'm still here...(and she's way "badder" than you....believe me )

I'm asking you to stop this insane "battle-cry"...it's going to hurt you in the end...hurt the piloting profession as a whole.....and set us all back about 50 years at the table.

 

[EastUS]

I'm asking you to stop this insane "battle-cry"...it's going to hurt you in the end...hurt the piloting profession as a whole.....and set us all back about 50 years at the table.

I'll go with a notion of my own as well sir = I'd ask of those earnestly putting faith in this "Army" out there to directly ask of them, without buying into this "We can't tell you anything...just trust us and keep sending your money" BS that seems said "Army's" mantra, the following questions:

1) Without any further BS; Just when can I expect this great triumph for Nic to ever happen? How many years?.....seriously?...if ever?
2) How are we going to gain any dominion at all, ever, over the evil-easties if they're the only ones even discussing the Union actions and voting on them?
3) Where's all that devastating legal action that was promised to us for our money?...and was promised to start up soon...ummm....how many times now?
4) Where's all this "All Out Warfare" with the east people actually and honestly taking us?
5) What's to keep the east from doing whatever they want, so long as all that we're actually doing is nothing more than just pizzing them off?

Of course..I wouldn't dare suggest that any of the hopelessly Faithful Followers out there actually stop and think, for even a moment. That's been covered by a Leo-gram that specifically directs that no discussions be engaged, for reasons of avoiding any "distraction" = "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain..The Great and Powerfull Le-OZ has spoken!!" Sheesh!..a whole lotta' tough talk for an organization that actually does....apparently..well...NOTHING.

Just the fact that anyone would ever post anything at all that seeks to silence discussion should serve as an enormous red flag to all, but I wouldn't want anyone to become "distracted" from Le-Oz's great purposes Leo-La-La = " nor will we publicly respond to open-ended questions found in that forum. The choice not to engage certain individuals via a message board is both by design and a conscientious decision, because it will do nothing to solve the problems we currently face as a pilot group, and only causes needless distraction." Ummm..SURE...if you say so, Oh Great and Powerful Wizard