Us Airways To Seek Injunction If Unions Walk
- Thread starter jB-Rocks
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Rico said:
If the people vote down the TA, is it really a strike or is everyone just quiting forever at the same time? At EAL, we knew from day one when Lorenzo got there that there was no future and that the job would not be worth it for what he wanted to pay. EAL people knew there was no turning back. Was it a strike or did EAL people really quit all at once?If the majority vote down the TA and everyone just quit at the same time (as USA320 pilot suggests) then the judge could not do anything. They can't force people to come to work. Your comparison to the APA/American Airlines situation is not the same. AA pilots had a contract in place and an alleged "sickout" occurred over the purchase of Reno Air. The judge fined the Union and it's President and VP.
In this case, if US imposes wages, work rules, etc. Then there is no contract. The company will have resorted to self help and the union can also resort to self help(stike). In CO's first BK, after abrogating the contacts, Lorenzo imposed wages, work rules,etc. (self help) and the unions struck (self help) so in my opinion CO's first BK sets the precedent. It would be hypocritical for US management to ignore Section 6 (violate status quo by imposing wages, etc) and then insist that the unions adhere to Section 6 (maintain status quo by not striking). It seems to me that if the company imposes wages, work rules,etc. then there is no contract and the employees become "at will" employees and these "at will" employees can decide to just quit (as USA320 suggests) all at the same time. How do you like those apples?
Yeah, whatever, one thing I learned about unions is, that they are real good about collecting what is owed to them from the membership. US Airways or no US Airways, if a national union is stuck with a multi-million dollar fine, they sure are not going to get it payed off by doing bake sales...
Yeah, whatever, the supposed "sickout" came to screeching halt after the fine was imposed. How is that example any different in terms of regaining status quo...?
It is not about having a contract "in place", TThe fact remains that certified unions representing the abrogated work groups will still exist, and IF US Airways can get an injuction, it will be based on the premise that those unions have to start from scratch and begin negotiations for a NEW CBA, thus negating the ability to strike for now.
Yes, an injuction cannot force an individual to work, but it can halt any strike dead in it's tracks, at which point if you do not show up to work, you are not on strike, you just plain quit.
It is your option to quit at anytime, but unlike a strike, there is no return. And unlike a strike, anyone that wants to work can still do so, and your position can be replaced without malice.
It is not a pretty thought, but what exactly did you expect if the Company is able to first abrogate the remaining contracts, and then obtain an injuction...?
Not meant to be mean, just hate to see people kid themselves.
jimntx
Veteran
Rico said:
If US Airways goes under, there are no union members to collect from. There are only former member of the US Airways locals. I suppose the national could file 5,000-6000 individual suits in small claims court, but I don't think that will happen.
People have tried and tried to point out to you that the sickout at AA is not the same situation as US Airways and its unions. The AA pilots were not in self-help, there were no contract negotiations going on. They were just po'd about the Reno deal. So, what they did was illegal. From a principle standpoint, it may have been right, but it wasn't legal.
Now, I know that when you get through flying your regional jet, you are a legal expert par excellence on the side, but my labor lawyer friend says that contract abrogation by a court takes a union directly to self-help under the RLA. A judge may approve an injunction, but according to my friend, US Airways flies into a city which is in the district of a VERY labor-friendly appeals court which is seldom overturned by the Supremes. So, don't bet the farm on US Airways employees being FORCED to work.
Unfortunately becoming informed is almost impossible with the CWA. The union reps kind of make themselves very scare when questions need to be answered. They don't have the guts to step up to the plate when things are looking grim. I can bet they will have some kind of informational meeting at the last hour and if the agents want to be there to have the contract explained they will have to be at a certain place, on A certain day, no where close to the res center, between 1:00PM and 1:15 pm or "oh well you lose". This going to be a swift moving "herd the blind cattle to slaughter", cut their throats before they even know what hit them.
Jennyann
Advanced
I know you're right Bobcat......Not once since the paycut have I seen anyone from the AFA in any crew rooms getting the facts and info out there!! :angry:bobcat said:
Its amazing just how many F/As dont have any facts or knowledge about the situation!
Look, I am not a lawyer, I just play one on TV....
But,
It is obvious that
IF Airways can get the Abrogation from Judge #1
and
IF Airways can get an injuction ordering the unions back to work from Judge #2
THEN... it will be because the Company has successfully argued in court thier position that if a contract is abrogated, that a union is still bound to the terms of the RLA, and that they should once again begin the negotiation process to establish a new CBA, and work under the "snapshot" of the last company proposal right prior to the abrogation.
Just "as if" a union (like the IAM) had just been certified on the property, and would have to negotiate a new CBA, while in the meantime working under whatever pay/rules were in place right prior to it's arrival.
So
At that point, no further work actions would be allowed or tolerated until the full blown negotiation process has been accomplished, which is guarenteed to take a LONG time. Striking, or any other work action while "in" negotiations, or even when not (ala AAL and APA) is illegal. Thus the comparison to the APA case
IF an injuction can be obtained, it is no longer a legal strike, and going against the judge's orders will most likely bring harsh penalty upon the union leadrship AND membership.
My point is that people are seriously deluded if they think that Any national union is going to expose themselves to the same financial penalties by continuing or endorsing anyone continuing any work action once a Judge has ruled against them
But,
It is obvious that
IF Airways can get the Abrogation from Judge #1
and
IF Airways can get an injuction ordering the unions back to work from Judge #2
THEN... it will be because the Company has successfully argued in court thier position that if a contract is abrogated, that a union is still bound to the terms of the RLA, and that they should once again begin the negotiation process to establish a new CBA, and work under the "snapshot" of the last company proposal right prior to the abrogation.
Just "as if" a union (like the IAM) had just been certified on the property, and would have to negotiate a new CBA, while in the meantime working under whatever pay/rules were in place right prior to it's arrival.
So
At that point, no further work actions would be allowed or tolerated until the full blown negotiation process has been accomplished, which is guarenteed to take a LONG time. Striking, or any other work action while "in" negotiations, or even when not (ala AAL and APA) is illegal. Thus the comparison to the APA case
IF an injuction can be obtained, it is no longer a legal strike, and going against the judge's orders will most likely bring harsh penalty upon the union leadrship AND membership.
My point is that people are seriously deluded if they think that Any national union is going to expose themselves to the same financial penalties by continuing or endorsing anyone continuing any work action once a Judge has ruled against them
ClueByFour
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Rico said:
There is precedent for this. Prior to 1113, any union who had it's contract tossed walked (see CO and EA). 1113 does nothing more than establishes a procedure that must be followed before abrogation. Other than that, there is zero difference between the early 1990s and now, despite what the company likes to think.
But let's look at this from a logical fallacy point of view: the company is maintaining that BK law only trumps the RLA until the contract is actually rejected, and then the RLA takes hold? Methinks not.
Fries with that?
OldGuyinPA
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usfliboi..hasn't a clue...
the TA has to be ratified...the union just wanted to let the employees decide..
It isn't going to pass....................
BYCU
the TA has to be ratified...the union just wanted to let the employees decide..
It isn't going to pass....................
BYCU
If outsourcing is permitted by this TA, then you can bet that if you're a CWA person, you're going to out of a job eventually.
As far as the company recovering anything from a union after a foced contract abrogation. Good luck. There won't be any company. Lakefield is playing a very high stakes game betting that he can bamboozle the more senior union member to throw the bottom half under the bus. Then after the junior half are gone, he'll start the process all over again until everybody is working under long term contracts for $10 an hour. He'd like you to think this TA is the last pound of flesh he wants. In reality it's just the beginning.
His business plan is based on happy automotons working for sub-LCC wages and benefits in order to compensate for his management team's continuing incompetence.
As far as the company recovering anything from a union after a foced contract abrogation. Good luck. There won't be any company. Lakefield is playing a very high stakes game betting that he can bamboozle the more senior union member to throw the bottom half under the bus. Then after the junior half are gone, he'll start the process all over again until everybody is working under long term contracts for $10 an hour. He'd like you to think this TA is the last pound of flesh he wants. In reality it's just the beginning.
His business plan is based on happy automotons working for sub-LCC wages and benefits in order to compensate for his management team's continuing incompetence.
goingboeing
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Rico said:
The Allied Pilots at AA used the $45 million fine to their bargaining advantage during the concessions 18 months ago.They basically told AA management to drop the fine and then they would recommend ratifying the concessions to their membership.
How is the airline going to operate if a judge locks up all the employees in jail?
A judge cannot make you come to work as we still live in a Republic and have freedom of choice.I can choose to skip work for a week right now and a judge or the company cannot make me report for work.I may not have a job when I decide to show up but the judge could not make me go to work.
"the TA has to be ratified...the union just wanted to let the employees decide..
It isn't going to pass....................
"
Oh but it will, just like the pilots. Sure, there will be discontent and raised voices, but it'll pass. What the heck else is people going to do, they hitched their horse to this buggy.The company knows it and is playing on everyones fears and wallets.
The AFA will more than likley have a similar fate.
It's over, just take the beating and pray that it is the last for a bit of time, that is untill the management needs just a bit more.
It isn't going to pass....................
"
Oh but it will, just like the pilots. Sure, there will be discontent and raised voices, but it'll pass. What the heck else is people going to do, they hitched their horse to this buggy.The company knows it and is playing on everyones fears and wallets.
The AFA will more than likley have a similar fate.
It's over, just take the beating and pray that it is the last for a bit of time, that is untill the management needs just a bit more.
