US Airways to keep $200M codeshare deal with UAL - for now

[USA320Pilot]

767jetz:

I never made a prediction. It was you who predicted.

My information came from sources such as Wall Street Analysts/IB's, ALPA International, US Airways' CEO, US Airways' Chairman of the Board, and other informed sources, inlcuding UAL's EVP of finance (through a US Airways Captain who I have since named).

The good news, which I said over-and-over is that a deal between US Airways and United did not proceed. Now according to ALPA E&FA and the US Airways ALPA MEC Chairman the Tempe-based airline is the third financially stongest carrier in the world.

Now...can you let this die and not try to have the last word when I have given you the sources, the news media discussed in print "Project Minnow" (which I first indicated and called the UCT and then when it changed the ICT), and US Airways' chairman of the board spoke of acquiring UAL assets for US Airways.

Do you think Tilton lied about UAL nearly liquidating (US Airways was close too) in his post-baskruptcy interview, Brace lied on the Shuttle flight, Siegel lied to our crew, or Bronner lied to the news media during 3 interviews?

By the way...I have since learned that UAL was very, very close to liquidating and the ICT was very, very close to happening. Did it happen? No, however, I always indicated it may or may not happen when I said maybe, maybe not, but you always seem to dismiss that point when you wanted to "shoot the messenger" because you did not like the news.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ClueByFour]

Now according to ALPA E&FA and the US Airways ALPA MEC Chairman the Tempe-based airline is the third financially stongest carrier in the world.

Above and beyond the consideration that neither the ALPA MEC Chairman nore ALPA E&FA do not have any credibility at all to make such a statement, how exactly do they define "strong?"

Cash in the bank when everything at the airline is hocked to the gills? Still losing money?

I suppose these people have never heard of Southwest. Or Continental. Or BA. Or Cathay. Or Singapore. Or Qantas. Or Lufthansa.

Citing this as supporting material in this "debate" (such as that is) is probably not a good way to support a point.

 

[Cosmo]

My information came from sources such as Wall Street Analysts/IB's, ALPA International, US Airways' CEO, US Airways' Chairman of the Board, and other informed sources, inlcuding UAL's EVP of finance (through a US Airways Captain who I have since named).

Your "secret" sources were wrong or you misinterpreted what you heard, or you "heard" what you wanted to hear, or some combination of all three. Whatever. It simply defies credible belief that any of the sources that you mentioned, much less all of them, would divulge such sensitive "insider" corporate information to a not-very-senior US Airways line pilot, especially knowing that it would almost instantaneously be posted on a public Internet bulletin board. This just doesn't pass the smell test.

Now...can you let this die and not try to have the last word when I have given you the sources, the news media discussed in print "Project Minnow" (which I first indicated and called the UCT and then when it changed the ICT), and US Airways' chairman of the board spoke of acquiring UAL assets for US Airways.

Every "news media discussion" you have provided on these boards was only a "wish list" from US Airways' point of view with no indication that United even took part in any of these "discussions", much less was seriously entertaining the thought of selling part of its operation to US Airways. As I said about six months ago in this thread on the US Airways board, you have NEVER, EVER offered any verifiable proof to support your claims. And you still haven't done so.

 

[whlinder]

Now according to ALPA E&FA and the US Airways ALPA MEC Chairman the Tempe-based airline is the third financially stongest carrier in the world.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Therefore, US Airways is financially stronger than all but two of the following airlines:
Southwest
RyanAir
EasyJet
British Airways
Air France/KLM
Lufthansa Group
Emirates
Singapore Air
Qantas
Cathay Pacific
Virgin

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Just when I think it can't get any better, it does!

Whatever you say man, whatever you say....

 

[767jetz]

767jetz:
I never made a prediction.

Oh please. Stop the innocent victim act. Your not fooling anyone except maybe yourself. You most certainly speculated that your wild scenarios were accurate depictions of what will happen. Whether you said it directly or implied it (you did both), it is obvious that you BELIEVED it was the most likely outcome. Remember what I said? It was the probability of those events unfolding the way you said they might that was the topic of our debate. Not whether or not anything was discussed.

Now...can you let this die

Now, why don’t YOU let this die and not try to have the last word. Be a man and admit you were wrong. Then this discussion can finally be put to rest. Don’t worry… I know the truth can hurt before it sets you free.

By the way… I just spent 2 days working with ANOTHER person who knew you many years ago in your Air Guard days. Funny thing is, he had the same reaction others I’ve met had at the mention of your name. His assessment back then was that you were a “nice enough guy, BUT arrogant, self important, liked to think you were in the know, claimed to have connections with people in high places with no supporting evidence, thought you were always right while others were always wrong, and basically self absorbed.†Those were his words, not mine. There were a few other words mentioned that I won’t repeat for fear of being sent to the cornfield. I guess in almost 20 years nothing has changed.

I do find it interesting how consistent the opinions of people who know you personally are.

As I told you last month:

The fact that you were wrong is exactly the issue. The one thing you never were capable of grasping (and apparently still cannot) is that your unsubstantiated speculations, opinions, and information from mysterious “reliable†Wall Street sources constitute neither a report of fact nor a possible outcome, and therefore do not require acceptance from anyone. The words you type on this forum do not merit validation simply because they come from you. This is an inherent flaw in your reasoning. And without the benefit of an actual event that actually happened after you predicted it (beyond the he said – she said), it is very easy to dismiss your ideas as banter.

Me and my colleagues on the other hand, have the actual outcomes of events that we predicted would and wouldn’t happen, and reported to you from our reliable sources. (Which btw you failed to accept.) And that serves to prove our credibility while further diminishing yours.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

bullies

 

[USA320Pilot]

767jetz:

Let me help you understand some facts. After I first reported UCT discussions and then the transition to the ICT the following events happened:

• US Airways' chairman of the board told the news media in three separate interviews he was interested in buying UAL assets for US Airways.

• US Airways' chief executive officer told my crew and LGA-based First Officer Tim Caroe that he US Airways and UAL were involved in fragmentation discussions where US Airways could acquire a significant amount of UAL assets.

• The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reported "Project Minnow" discussions, which was the code word used by UAL and US Airways to discuss the corporate transaction that I first called the UCT and then the transition to the ICT.

• Glenn Tilton told the news media in an interview, if my memory serves me correctly, it was to Dave Carpenter that UAL was very close to liquidating during its judicial reorganization.

• Dave Siegel told Tim and I that if SARS or the Iraqi War has lasted a little longer then "Project Minnow" would have proceeded.

Your response to these facts is to try and discredit or shoot the messenger instead of recognizing the situation at hand.

Again, go look at the archives because I always gave a disclaimer that a deal may or may not proceed, but it was you as a prognosticator filled with what I believe was fear of the unknown. I provided real-time information on what was happening inside the “executive suitesâ€￾ that where later provided by the news media or direct discussion with the parties involved in the UCT/ICT discussions.

Can you tell me which one of the facts above is not accurate and which one of the facts above I was wrong about?

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[hp_fa]

There were a few other words mentioned that I won’t repeat for fear of being sent to the cornfield.

If we were playing Hangman, I would guess that at least one word was a compound word utilizing the word "hole" as one of the words.

 

[767jetz]

If we were playing Hangman, I would guess that at least one word was a compound word utilizing the word "hole" as one of the words.

You are correct! How on earth did you know that??

 

[Cosmo]

USA320Pilot:

This is nothing but more of your "spin" on events over the past few years (my comments are in red).

• US Airways' chairman of the board told the news media in three separate interviews he was interested in buying UAL assets for US Airways.

True but so what? Many airlines wanted various parts of United, but United's management was able to retain control of the bankruptcy process (with the creditor's committee approval, of course) and ultimately enabled the airline to exit the Chapter 11 proceeding without selling or disposing of any material part of the airline. There has NEVER been ANY real proof offered that United ever entered into serious negotiations, with US Airways or anyone else, to sell various parts of the airline. And by "real proof" I mean like in a SEC Form 10-Q or 10-K report.

• US Airways' chief executive officer told my crew and LGA-based First Officer Tim Caroe that he US Airways and UAL were involved in fragmentation discussions where US Airways could acquire a significant amount of UAL assets.

This is not only hearsay but it is also extremely unlikely that such a discussion actually took place, at least not the way that you characterize it. SEC rules forbid the limited disclosure of such "insider" information, and the idea that a CEO would risk the SEC's wrath by talking to a line pilot who was known to be incapable of keeping a secret is simply laughable. Moreover, United would have walked away and publicly disavowed any such discussions the moment you blabbed about them on these boards.

• The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reported "Project Minnow" discussions, which was the code word used by UAL and US Airways to discuss the corporate transaction that I first called the UCT and then the transition to the ICT.

As I said in my previous post, every "news media discussion" you have provided on these boards was only a "wish list" from US Airways' point of view with no indication that United even took part in any of these "discussions", much less was seriously entertaining the thought of selling part of its operation to US Airways.

• Glenn Tilton told the news media in an interview, if my memory serves me correctly, it was to Dave Carpenter that UAL was very close to liquidating during its judicial reorganization.

I don't recall any such interview where that was discussed, but I'm willing to stand corrected if you can provide a link to it.

• Dave Siegel told Tim and I that if SARS or the Iraqi War has lasted a little longer then "Project Minnow" would have proceeded.

This was nothing more than Siegel's opinion, not a statement of fact.

Your response to these facts is to try and discredit or shoot the messenger instead of recognizing the situation at hand.

No, the problem is that you take hearsay, opinions and facts out of context in an effort to "spin" them into your version of events, always to the detriment of United. THAT'S what I (and others) object to.

 

[700UW]

Touche!

 

[767jetz]

You are a very dense and stubborn person. Don't you ever have anything new to say. Since you insist on going round and round with with this, here we go again...

• US Airways' chairman of the board told the news media in three separate interviews he was interested in buying UAL assets for US Airways.

- No one questions that there was interest in aquiring UAL assets by many people. Who wouldn't with UAL's assets being considered by most experts as the "envy of the industry." Even you would have liked to fly UA's big airplanes to far away destinations. (It is understandable why you are so emotional about the subject.)

• US Airways' chief executive officer... blah,blah,blah...US Airways and UAL were involved in fragmentation discussions...

- Again, discussions about many scenarios and exploring all options is common in reorganizations of that kind. The real question is, how indepth and serious were those discussions? Were you in the room when they took place? If not you are repeating second or third hand on something you can not verify as accurate.

Example: US CEO - "We are interested in fragmenting UA and buying assets on the cheap." UA CEO - "No way. End of discussion."

See how it can work? No one disputes that there were many discussions of various degrees. Was there a chance? Well, one can never say never. Even a snow ball has a chance to survive in He11. At least a short time.

• The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reported "Project Minnow" discussions, which was the code word used by UAL and US Airways to discuss the corporate transaction that I first called the UCT and then the transition to the ICT.

- See above response.

• Glenn Tilton told the news media in an interview, that UAL was very close to liquidating

- Define "very close." Was this a public statement for effect? Were contract negotiations taking place? What did he mean by close? By whose measure? I guess any company in CH11 is close to liquidation compared to those that are not. USAir was close to liquidating as well. TWICE. The only thing that really matters is probability and actual result.

• Dave Siegel told Tim and I that if SARS or the Iraqi War has lasted a little longer then "Project Minnow" would have proceeded.

- This one is the most comical. Guess what? The Iraq war DID last longer. Infact it is ongoing. And after SARS there was a little rain storm called Katrina, and countless other obstacles. So obviously Siegel was wrong about "Project Minnow" proceeding. No one could predict the outcome of SARS or Iraq, any more than they can predict the winning lottery numbers.

Again, your beloved Project that had US swallowing for UA, ( or something like that ) was just the code name for someone's wet dream. No one disputes that many had hopes and even plans of benefitting from a potential failure of UA. (See first response.)

I do know for a fact that even if Tilton had a final "dooms day" worst case plan for UA, it was NEVER his intention or desire for it to proceede. And that came directly from Tilton's mouth on my airplane.

Therefore there is no need to search archives. We all know as a matter of fact, no matter how hard you spin it, that you BELIEVED that the probability of your many speculations, hopes, and rumors actually coming true was high. This can be proven by the many times you scolded anyone with a competeing scenario for being "uniformed." And it is the probability of those scenarios happening that you were dead wrong about.

I provided real-time information on what was happening inside the “executive suitesâ€￾

You did no such thing. What you provided was things you heard might be happening in the executive suite, or things you were hoping were happening there. Just because you repeat it here, over and over, does not automatically make it un questionable fact. Are we to validate your words just because they come from you? I think not. Who do you think you are anyway? You are not as important as you perceive yourself to be.

As for claiming that you did not prognasticate, and it was I who did such, it is a common npd trait to redirect and project on others the EXACT thing that you are guilty of. Since you have no credibility with me, and even those who know you personally, you are fooling no one.

Now, are you ready to concede and not have the last word, or do we have to go around this traffic pattern again?

Peace,
767jetz

 

[LCC_#1]

Dear USA-LCC-320-#1-pilot,

Hey don't pull ME into your fight just because you think I am USA320pilot. I ain't on the :jerry: Springer SHow.

BTW, did you get my pm?

 

[Bear96]

I was gonna stay out of this one but it's just too easy ...

• US Airways' chairman of the board told the news media in three separate interviews he was interested in buying UAL assets for US Airways.

USAirways never bought UAL assets.

• US Airways' chief executive officer told my crew and LGA-based First Officer Tim Caroe that he US Airways and UAL were involved in fragmentation discussions where US Airways could acquire a significant amount of UAL assets.

USAirways never acquired ANY UAL assets, let alone a "significant amount."

• The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reported "Project Minnow" discussions, which was the code word used by UAL and US Airways to discuss the corporate transaction that I first called the UCT and then the transition to the ICT.

No corporate transaction (besides the codesharing and Star Alliance arrangements), ICT, UCT, "Project Minnow," or by any other name, ever occurred between UAL and USAirways.

• Glenn Tilton told the news media in an interview, if my memory serves me correctly, it was to Dave Carpenter that UAL was very close to liquidating during its judicial reorganization.

Link please? Even assuming something to this effect was said, I would like to see the whole context and the actual words used, instead of your (mis?)representation of them.

And duh, by definition, a Chapter 11 is "close to liquidation." They are both forms of bankruptcy. A company (generally) doesn't file Ch.11 if it is not close to liquidating. If things were going swimmingly for a company, there would be no need for Chapter 11. So if anything, Tilton was probably pointing out the obvious.

• Dave Siegel told Tim and I that if SARS or the Iraqi War has lasted a little longer then "Project Minnow" would have proceeded.

Ummm, the Iraq War is now in its fourth year. Isn't this just a "little longer" than anyone was planning on?

Can you tell me which one of the facts above is not accurate and which one of the facts above I was wrong about?

Looks like ALL of them!

 

[Richard]

Folks,

This is becoming a little too personal between two posters. This thread is about the code share and the future of the relationship between US and UA, NOT about what could have, should have or would have been, and who predicted what.

Let's get it back on course please.

Thanks and regards,

Richard