US Airways has chosen to stand against the American people ….

[nycbusdriver]

It's a logical and predictable cathartic displacement and venting of frustration that must be necessarily aimed at another group for the sole purpose of making one feel better about his own convictions and place in the world. And one blows a perceived threat out of proportion in proportion to the amount of psychological comfort he needs to derive from addressing it.

The Chancellor of Germany used similar tactics in 1930s Germany, with similar lack of authentic basis. And, see: the tactic still works, at least in Arizona.

Now we're going to hear from the "How dare you compare this to Nazi Germany" crowd, with righteous indignation. Fact is, this is how it all starts. It happened then and got blown out of proportion. Arizona is at the beginning of the same sociological movement, but it is unlikely to go very far. Cooler heads can and will prevail. Arizonans will wake up eventually and see the manipulation going on by those who really are using the tried and true Nazi tactics here.

 

[freedom]

well , that's game .... i would now like to ask the MOD's to CLOSE THIS THREAD please ....


As an indvidual i am commited to non violence



just so that everyone is aware , the bills that were being proposed have failed in the state senate so in effect the chamber of commerce got what they wanted ... i thank alll of you for voting and sharing your opinion

 

[HPearlyretiree]

well , that's game .... i would now like to ask the MOD's to CLOSE THIS THREAD please ....


As an indvidual i am commited to non violence



just so that everyone is aware , the bills that were being proposed have failed in the state senate so in effect the chamber of commerce got what they wanted ... i thank alll of you for voting and sharing your opinion

The bills that were being proposed were unconstitutional and they placed significant burdens on private industry to track people.

They all lost, and it was the conservative Republicans who saw to that, they were terrible bills, unconstitutional and a giant waste of time that would have made AZ a laughing stock. Pearce got his comeuppance, and Parker and the other CEO's were right.

There is hope for Arizona.

 

[28L_or_10R?]

well , that's game .... i would now like to ask the MOD's to CLOSE THIS THREAD please ....


As an indvidual i am commited to non violence



just so that everyone is aware , the bills that were being proposed have failed in the state senate so in effect the chamber of commerce got what they wanted ... i thank alll of you for voting and sharing your opinion

You started this thread with a stick and you were just looking for a big pile of feces.

 

[ChockJockey]

just so that everyone is aware , the bills that were being proposed have failed in the state senate so in effect the chamber of commerce got what they wanted ... i thank alll of you for voting and sharing your opinion

Well if it makes you feel any better none of the bills are technically dead until the end of business Monday, when any of the Senators that voted them down could submit to have any one of them reintroduced into the legislative session. Senate rules and all that...

 

[Black Magic]

Citizenship? When did I say anything about citizenship?

I agree, they've broke the law, it's a shame, just awful, but now that's settled we have to deal with the reality that there's 12 million of them here and we have to come up with some sort of a solution, whether that's authorizing 150,000,000 search warrants for every residence in the country to find them and weed them out or giving them amnesty so we can all frolic together in the fields.



Skilled people from Europe and the South of Asia on the list to enter the U.S...so they can pick tomatoes?




And I say you have failed Arizona by not capitalizing it, it is a proper noun.

So when George W. Bush tried to implement a guest worker program during his administration it was actually a Democratic plot? What Obama is promoting doesn't differ much from what his predecessor was. This isn't something that's magically immune to bipartisan effort, there's actual common ground. The hard part is getting Congress to take up the issue which they won't until they're finished fighting about the budget.

No search warrants are needed..once sb1070 passes the system will take care of itself. Police encounter illegals on a daily basis with no identification whatsoever and don't speak english. There will be some that stay in the shadows under the radar and that is fine but having the law in place sets precedence to what is tolerated here. Arizona does not need 600,000 illegals to pick tomatoes or whatever on a seasonal basis. There will always be no shortage for unskilled labor for the general public to perform at a wage the market sets. Its been noted that since human history no country has survived without securing it's borders.

 

[ChockJockey]

No search warrants are needed..once sb1070 passes the system will take care of itself. Police encounter illegals on a daily basis with no identification whatsoever and don't speak english. There will be some that stay in the shadows under the radar and that is fine but having the law in place sets precedence to what is tolerated here.

Which is great if you don't have a problem with allowing police to arrest people on the grounds that they merely look like they may have broken the law. SB1070 lowers the arrest threshold from 'probable cause' to 'reasonable suspicion'. This is not something to be taken lightly, and this is a dangerous precedent to set, especially when criteria the police are going to use in determining to ask for legal status are vague and ambiguous.

"That's fine", you say, "if they're legal citizens or they have their paperwork they have nothing to worry about." Which is indeed true, until they try to apply that same threshold and criteria to other crimes. Let's say you're driving an old SUV in a sketchy neighborhood, get pulled over and the cop thinks you're acting nervous. Maybe you look like the "druggie" type (not unlikely if you work fleet for US). Congratulations: you're reasonably suspected of trafficking or buying drugs, now it's just a matter of detaining you until you can prove this isn't the case. That sucks, but, drugs really are a Big Problem and we really have to take Strong Measures to Get Tough on people that traffic and sell them. Maybe you're of Middle Eastern descent and look "radicalized". Maybe you fit the "reasonable suspicion" profile of a rapist, child molester, terrorist or kidnapper. Reasonable suspicion of guilt until proven innocent. This crappy system of suspicion might work well for the TSA but not for our police.

SB1070 isn't going to solve anything because once the courts have ripped its teeth out there's not going to be much left to it anyway.

Arizona does not need 600,000 illegals to pick tomatoes or whatever on a seasonal basis. There will always be no shortage for unskilled labor for the general public to perform at a wage the market sets. Its been noted that since human history no country has survived without securing it's borders.

Then how many illegals does Arizona need? Maybe it was market that attracted those people here in the first place.

I contend that in all of human history there have been exactly ZERO nations that have had entirely 100% secured borders, and when the borders have been secured, they were mainly to protect against military incursions and not population migrations. Migrant populations have been crossing borders for centuries as if they weren't even there. The Romani (Gypsies) had spread to every corner of Europe by the 17th century and are a minority in most European countries to this day. So it depends on what you mean by "secured" borders. Guarded borders or hermetically sealed borders? The borders of all nations through nearly all of history have been porous. It's only when there's a sharp contrast in wealth and living conditions along the same border that that becomes a serious problem.

And then what exactly are you going to do to secure the border completely? A fence will work great, until it's scaled or cut through. How about one big wall, from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific? But walls can be tunneled under, so we'll have to make sure that wall's footers to go pretty deep, and that's going to take a lot of concrete. Plus it's going to need maintenance, and we'll need a lot of Border Patrol agents to constantly go up and down it, which means more Humvee's ATV's and helicopters. Sounds pretty expensive so far...and now we have unmanned drones buzzing around over U.S. and Mexican territory, and cameras, and sensors and all kinds of neat toys from Boeing's defense division. Do we really need to spend hundreds of billions of dollars committing to a concept of "border security" that's going to militarize domestic territory and allow the installation, use, and perfection of surveillance and spy equipment that can be all too easily adapted for use in law enforcement activities that have nothing to do with the border or immigration...just to keep out people looking for work or escaping the violent narco-civil warring hell-hole country that American demand for narcotics has turned it into?

Just remember that all the walls and fences you build to keep others out can just as easily be used to keep you in. Freedom isn't free. One of its costs is that there are those that are going to abuse it to the detriment of others. So be it. So long as we have the rights to assemble, barter, and travel freely, some people are going to use those rights to conduct illegal business. That's just a sad fact of human nature. We can either reform our immigration system so that we can live with this reality as best we can or we can sacrifice those rights to our fear and anger of the alien population and run into the arms of a police state mentality.

Most nations and civilizations in history including the United States rose to power or have maintained it with the servitude and/or exploitation of often imported or subdued weaker social groups, whether they be migrants or slaves or serfs to do the hard and dirty work when it needed to be done. That there are this many illegal immigrants here is not some kind of historical aberration or anomaly, it's pretty on par with the greater nations in human history.

Anyways and as such this again is why I support Mr. Parker's having signed said letter (in order to justify this post as being on topic wink wink). Long reply is long.

 

[AirlineGeek SFO]

I have to first tell you that my relatives in Californa's San Joaquin Valley are illegal immigrants, You see, my relatives came to California from Oklahoma and were turned away as they were illegal, they did come back on of all days but 07 DEC 1941 to go work in the shipyards in the Bay Area, they did immigrate against the law. California had a law against "Okies", this law went all the way to the US Supreme Court thanks to the ACLU.

I think States need to stay out of Immigration Legislation, then and now.

My relatives broke the law (CA) to help in the War Effort and to better themselves, so bash them for breaking the law, but my family helped in winning WWII, so what are you going to say?

I was part of the minority in this poll to agree with US Airways Mgmt.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I contend that in all of human history there have been exactly ZERO nations that have had entirely 100% secured borders, and when the borders have been secured, they were mainly to protect against military incursions and not population migrations.

I think North Korea comes close to 100%. And we all know what a haven for illegals that country is.

I have to first tell you that my relatives in Californa's San Joaquin Valley are illegal immigrants, You see, my relatives came to California from Oklahoma and were turned away as they were illegal, they did come back on of all days but 07 DEC 1941 to go work in the shipyards in the Bay Area, they did immigrate against the law. California had a law against "Okies", this law went all the way to the US Supreme Court thanks to the ACLU.

I think States need to stay out of Immigration Legislation, then and now.

My relatives broke the law (CA) to help in the War Effort and to better themselves, so bash them for breaking the law, but my family helped in winning WWII, so what are you going to say?

I was part of the minority in this poll to agree with US Airways Mgmt.

That's an interesting bit of history. I had no idea that CA had laws keeping people from other states out.

 

[sbtinme]

A word of thanks to Chock for his remarkable, well written comments. I enjoyed and appreciated every word. I think I'd really enjoy talking global history with you over a weekend sometime! Anytime cool-headed reason prevails over hot-headed fury, we ALL win.

 

[ChockJockey]

A word of thanks to Chock for his remarkable, well written comments.

Thank you sir. Cheers.

 

[freedom]

Last week, after lobbying by business leaders, the senate rejected bills designed to catch people in Arizona illegally, and to deny citizenship to illegal immigrants’ children.



Immigration has proved volatile in Washington.




In Phoenix, there are still daily protests outside the Senate Office Building


Bloomberg article Arizona Is Immigration Debate Ground Zero With Hispanics Rising



you just waded in to the most devisive poltical debate in the country .... thanks for that! this will come in handy in the future !

 

[Dog Wonder]

I swear, that boy is about as deep as a mud puddle.

 

[leprechaun]

The pontificator of wall street, the economic savant, yup, that boy is about as sharp as a bowling ball.

 

[signals]

How many illegals does US employ?