Us Airways Details Network Plans

[Winglet]

Enhanced fragmentation requirements would probably make the useful pieces of U less attractive. If an existing airline buys a piece of U (say the shuttle ops), the gaining airline's unions are going to fight it. ALPA national is going to be worthless, especially if the gaining airline's union is much larger. Given the conditions in the market, and especially on the east coast, I think all a gaining airline is going to want is the gates and routes . . . . . unless of course it's a new start up. Even with that the case, they're going to want a lot lower compensation than an America West level contract with a the most senior pilots U have.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Enhanced fragmentation requirements would probably make the useful pieces of U less attractive. If an existing airline buys a piece of U (say the shuttle ops), the gaining airline's unions are going to fight it. ALPA national is going to be worthless. Given the conditions in the market, and especially on the east coast, I think all a gaining airline is going to want is the gates and routes . . . . . unless of course it's a new start up. Even with that the case, they're going to want a lot lower compensation than an America West level contract with a the most senior pilots U have.

exactly,

Whether or not ALPA or its members choose to believe it, the simple truth is that they are in the same boat as all US AIRWAYS workers, in bankruptcy or out of it. If the IAM members suffer then the whole body....or let's say ship suffers. It is just that simple. To believe otherwise is clouded & desperate thinking and just doesn't make good sense.

If your company wants to survive, then I believe it can because it has a good bunch of employees. But it would require it to be creative enough to build employee support. I havn't seen much building, only stubborn negative 'tearing down' which strips support. To build support, the company must choose to incorporate a language that uses more than concessions and bankruptcy.

regards,

 

[Pylit]

Hi Guys,
Maybe I missed a memo or something along the way, but doesn't the ATSB covenants prohibit another Ch. 11 filing?
My impression was if this mgmt files again, it's ch. 7.

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Notice: This post implies that I'm typing this and nothing else. :blink:
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[ClueByFour]

Clue:

It might be in 7, but it's not in 11. ALPA and the company are working on this as we speak.

If the company files, this will be a labor restructuring for the "Transformation Plan" non-participants, bond holders, and lessors.

Regardless, it's just a job.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Few notes:

I suggest taking a look at what happened with TWA. If AAA ALPA has "iron clad" fragmentation protection, nobody is going to buy any chunks of US. No point in taking very senior pilots and used aircraft when the aircraft are available cheap and so are the pilots (anybody got a copy of the Independence Airbus rates?).

In which case, Bronner make noise about going Chapter 7--at which point I'd bet a plugged nickel that AAA ALPA will vote away the fragmentation language. If not, Bronner sells what's left anyway, takes his ball, and goes home.

In any case, if any acquiring entity, especially under a Chapter 11 model is a larger airline and ALPA represented, ALPA national will appease the larger airline (for the same reason Duane-O is going along with the PHL recall stuff--the national only cares about keeping as many dues paying members as possible, and not a whit for the welfare of the profession).

With the possible exception of Airbus, no lessors are going to play ball the second time around. No EETC or bondholders but Bronner are going to come to play, and there is not an important airport in the system that will, either. None of the hubs or focus cities is gonna budge, save perhaps CLT.

I don't think Bronner has the stomach for another Chapter 11 filing, as there are too many risks involved (notably either the AFA or IAM-M walking off and shutting the whole thing down).

I also think that Pylit is correct that the ATSB prohibits a bankruptcy filing in any case (I'll check on that one).

 

[NeedForSpeedNFS]

Pacemaker,

Do you have even a little inclination of BK law? The judge does not impose workrule changes and wages. After a 1113 filing, unions and mangement have an oportunity to, once again negotiate in good faith. Their are 9 issues that a judge considers before consideration of abrogation.

If abrogation would occur, then the labor groups can accept the companies contract for labor or be released to "self help". If labor is released to "self help", which I suspect at least 1 or 2 groups would strike...

Its over for Dr. Bonehead, his investment, Senior management's huge payroll, and the employees. Game over.

pitbull, your friend here! In reference to your last statement, which I tend to agree with in PRINCIPAL, why do you always have to revert to inconsiderate name calling?? Your supposed to be a professional. When I spoke to you a couple months ago, I thought that is what you portrayed to me. Obviously, I was wrong to think in that vein. And after several months of watching your posts, I seem to think you are getting worse in your thinking. It's always the same rhetoric......the company this....company that......senior managements payroll....Don't misunderstand what i'm saying...we as employees have given enough, and I personally feel that its time for this company to do something with what they were given in previous givebacks. But your rhetoric of "us" against "them" is such old news, its quite frankly, BORING!!!!!! This is how it works....They(the Company,U), need to produce for the shareholders, we(employees), are secondary. I realize you dont like that, but this is the reality. Us(the employees) either accept or reject this reality, and move on......whatever position one may take, this fact is clear in this posters opinion; STOP with the steel mill mentality , union rhetoric, ie😀r Bonehead (that makes you look professional) Show a well-balanced,REASONED argument, and maybe you can be taken more seriously!!!!!! I look forward to speaking with you again Pitbull,I really do, name the time, and we'll talk, although after this post, you probably want to strangle me!!!! GOOD DAY.....MORE LATER!!!!!!

 

[Justaramper]

Before anyone takes his ball and goes home, lets consider some realistic facts:

Many employees are in that 40+ age bracket with kids at home and bills to pay. A certain % of marriages will be ruined, homes foreclosed and bankruptcy filed. How may will be screaming FULL PAY TO THE LAST DAY...? Probably not as many as you think. It's going to be an individual choice and a heart-wrenching one to make. But it will be voted on , as the Unions do have a responsibility to the membership.

Let the process begin and lets see what happens, instead of passing rumors and posting false stories on an Internet BB...

 

[Winglet]

No point in taking very senior pilots and used aircraft when the aircraft are available cheap and so are the pilots (anybody got a copy of the Independence Airbus rates?).

The point being that an airline that might aquire useful portions of U probably have pilots of their own on furlough. Taking the senior-most U pilots at much higher pay scales doesnt' make sense for the company, when it can have it's own junior furloughees fly those routes. The gaining union would have a real hard time within its furloughed and active pilot ranks, if it allowed senior U pilots ahead of them. This is one area where I see the gaining company and union in agreement.

TWA had fragmentation language also, but the unions signed it away. If they didn't, the deal wasn't going to get done. So, TWA ALPA acquiesed, even if you could say "with a gun to its head." They had no choice.

Unfortunately, due to the gross overcapacity with in the national system, any gaining airline can probably fill those routes with easily acquired aircraft and their own crews.

 

[USFlyer]

To pull this back to the original topic ... does anyone think we may see some point to point out of BWI return? US can't possibly capture all of the DC market from DCA due to slot and perimeter restrictions. But, I would love to see BWI-LAX, BWI-SFO, BWI-SEA and BWI-"Caribbean" (e.g., GCM, AUA, MBJ) return or start as regular routes (with BWI-SEA perhaps seasonal). I'm also thinking they would shy away from IAD to avoid upsetting their codeshare partner UA. Also, with now having feed in the west coast cities thanks to UA/UA Express, the BWI routes may work once again. A few weeks ago I needed to go to SMF, so I ended up booking DCA-PHL-SFO-SMF to stay on US as much as possible, but I totally would have taken a BWI-SFO-SMF routing! (Now, if UA-US had better reciprocal upgrade opportunities, I would have given UA all of the business, but that's a totally different topic.)

I know US would be competing with WN on BWI-LAX, but with a reduced cost structure maybe it would work. Just a thought ...

 

[USA320Pilot]

USFlyer:

The company was looking at Dulles for point-to-point service because the Baltimore yields are low with AirTran and Southwest dominating the market. But now with Independence Air entering the Dulles market with rock bottom fares, any legacy carrier that operates head-to-head will lose more money there too, unless they have a competitive cost structure.

Expect the new big GoFare initiative to be Washington, which will cause US Airways to stimulate traffic and lose more money in the process.

If costs do not quickly come down the company will not exist because in the future because yields are going to dramatically fall, which will cause accelerating loses when the seasonal traffic drops off after Labor Day.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[USFlyer]

Does anyone have a complete list of all EAS routes US serves? I'm particularly interested in those routes with service to PIT. I'm curious to see if US applies to move some of those routes to PHL.

 

[Light Years]

Does anyone have a complete list of all EAS routes US serves? I'm particularly interested in those routes with service to PIT. I'm curious to see if US applies to move some of those routes to PHL.

There's quite a few... I'm not sure if all of the 1900 service is EAS but some of the small-town service out of PIT includes Morgantown, Clarksburg, Parkersburg, Massena, Ogdensburg, Franklin/Oil City, Shenadoah Valley, Latrobe, Beckley, Bluefield/Princeton, Altoona, Dubois, Johnstown, Reading, Jamestown, Bradford/Olean/Warren. There's also the New England stuff, the Kansas stuff, and the stuff out of CLT. I'm not certain what kind of ongoing service is offered from MSY, TPA, and MIA these days.

I'm also interested in what US plans to do with this service. There was an article on here recently about EAS service saying how majors want to get rid of it, and stop having small turboprops fly under thier banner. Most have, with the smallest aircraft being 30 or so seats- America West, American in STL, Continental,Midwest are the only other examples I can think of with 19 seaters under thier banner (I'm not counting agreements like United/GLA or Northwest/Big Sky).

I'm not sure if the subsidies are really that much, and its more and more expensive to fly those planes, with fuel and new weight restrictions. On top of that, particularly in the East, people will drive to a lower fare airport rather than support the higher hometown service.

One solution was to have those airlines operate seperatley and codeshare with everyone, so an American pax could go on from PIT to Latrobe, and a US pax could go on from PHX to Flagstaff. They would be seperatly branded regional airlines like back in the day. That way there would theoretically be more support for the service. Another idea is to merge the Air Midwest, Commutair, Colgan Air, Big Sky Airlines, Corporate Airlines, and Big Sky Airlines of the world into a single government subsidized carrier that serves all of the required EAS cities, rather than ask the major airlines to do it. THere are all sorts of arguments about both.

What US will do in PIT reamins to be seen. They seem to have hinted at discontinuing most smaller city service or feed in its re-invention as a focus city. However, BOS and LGA are focus cities and BOS in particular serves quite a few unique small markets not going to a hub. And MCI is an even better example, with Express service to several Kansas cities feeding only mainline hub flights, a leftover from an attempted hub in the past.

Some of the PA service could be rerouted to PHL, the western NY state to BOS or LGA, and West Virginia to CLT but some of it will be a stretch. US hasnt made it clear what there plans are for aircraft under 50 seats, or what role turboprops will play in the future.

 

[Rob]

Another idea is to merge the Air Midwest, Commutair, Colgan Air, Big Sky Airlines, Corporate Airlines, and Big Sky Airlines of the world into a single government subsidized carrier that serves all of the required EAS cities ....

A flying Amtrak - maybe not such a great idea. The EAS subsidies have to be much cheaper.

 

[Doc]

Does anybody have the language on the… s1113 letter.