US Airways ALPA Merger Committee Presentation

[767jetz]

My, my, my... such seething anger. I hope this guy takes some time off and composes himself or the FAA might want to look closely at his file when his medical comes due.

This post is splattered with so much denial and twisted expectations that it can't possibly be taken seriously by more rational people.

It is you that is telling us that you will not "allow" our new management to bring us up to pay parity unless we accept this abortion of an arbitration. That is called extortion and blackmail.

Refusing to negotiate off your DOH demand, thumbing your nose at a respected arbitrator that you helped select, then refusing to accept a ruling that you agreed to submit to, and then holding an entire organization and it's employees hostage to your demands... now THAT is extortion and blackmail.

The essence of seniority is date of hire.

Date of Hire with fences should have been implemented.

No it's not. No it should not. That is simply an OPINION held by a small minority of the collective voice of a 60,000 member strong national union.
The essence of seniority in a deregulated industry without a national seniority list is career expectation and what position you hold when the merger takes place.

US Airways MEC voted against changing the Date of Hire merger policy at ALPA National when it was changed in 1991. It was United and Delta along with Northwest that voted to change the rules.

OK. So the majority has spoken (16 years ago) and you were out voted. What's your point? That you know better than the rest of ALPA? No, you just know what's better for you personally at this point in time. You guys love to point out that you have the majority and can impose your will on the smaller West, but apparently you don't like those rules either when they don't work in your favor.

The merger policy was changed to reflect a changed industry from the days of regulation. Most others (a majority... there's that word again) were able to clearly see that the old policy was inequitable and needed to change with the times. (Just like those of you arguing to change the age 60 rule. Or is this another double standard, that the only time rules should be updated is when it benefits you?)

No one I know wants to take a job away from an AWA pilot.

Of course not. What does AWA have that you want except maybe a west domicile. But you sure do want to take a job away from a DAL pilot or a UAL pilot. Because that's what this is really about. The next big merger. Don't pretend that you weren't livid at the thought of a prenuptual agreement with UAL in 2001 that would have fenced you off the 777/747 forever. Don't expect anyone to forget your guys asking for UA's 747 manuals. Don't act like you guys were not the first ones lathering to trade in a 737 reserve position to fly as a line holder in a 757 or 767. The hypocrisy is sickening.

Between your MEC and ALPA National, this will ensure that we throw this union out and create one that will benefit those of us that have been here the longest since we are the largest block.

There's that reference to being the largest block again. I guess this individual fails to understand that the Nicolau award will follow them no matter who represents them. After all, it is binding. But far be it for me to stop you guys from leaving ALPA. Please do so already and stop threatening. ALPA will have a far larger problem (larger block, get it?) to contend with if they don't certify the list than if they do. No one is going to cave to a small group who is resorting to threats, blackmail, and extortion.

 

[ussnark]

My, my, my... such seething anger. I hope this guy takes some time off and composes himself or the FAA might want to look closely at his file when his medical comes due.

Which guy, coward?

My AME want to see your history. He asked me who you are. What do I do now?

 

[exB717Flyer]

Jack Stephan's comments, Pete Gautheir's letter, and the raw emotion at the end of the May 21 EC meeting is straight to the core passion.

Less emotion and more rationality will get you much closer to your goal. You put a gun to our heads, demand concessions, and then blame us for destroying the company when we refuse your demands. The Nicolau Award will stand, your ALPA decert drive will fail, and the company will not be put out of business. You think you have much leverage when in fact you have little. Don't take my word for it; time will prove me right.

 

[767jetz]

Just watched most of the video, and all I can say is that it is nothing more than the same propaganda line. Nice presentation, but obviously a slanted point of view. The AAA MEC is now trying to renegotiate their arbitration in the court of public opinion. They will cry to anyone who will listen.

We all know that they disagree with the ruling. Do we really need a 47 minute video to proclaim this yet again. The EC was clear that there was no basis to throw out the award and that the process was followed. The case was already argued and lost in front of an arbitrator and 2 neutrals. What are they trying to accomplish? :huh: The only recourse they have is to negotiate improvements through a joint contract, or stone wall and stall. Either way, the hope for a new arbitration or overturning the ruling is futile. Move on, decertify, whatever... but stop crying over something that can not and will not change.

 

[USA320Pilot]

ExB717,

I suggest you look at the video to start this thread. Listen to Captain Stephan read Captain Gauthier's letter and then watch the end of the video with clips from the May 21 meeting.

There are many, many pilots waiting to send in their decertification card while they watch the Rice Committee. As I indicated earlier and then was chastized for the Company came to Jack Stephan with the idea of separate contracts and separate operations per last night's JNC update. If there is not a resolution to this problem like the company's suggestion then the wheels will come off of this place.

The Nicolau Award may stand, but it is not going to be implemented. Moreover, the AWA MEC's actions and misrepresentation is increasing the East pilot resolve to fight the Nicolau Award forever, if necessary.

My intention in starting this debate is that the AWA MEC and apparently many AWA pilots believe the US Airways MEC is not representing the desires of the pilot group. As I indicated before nothing could be further from the truth.

If necessary, the US Airways pilots are willing to live under LOA 93 and drag out our Section 6 negotiations for 5 years, if necessary, to prevent the Nicolau Award from proceeding.

If they do the East pilots will see about 250 retirements per year, another large group of pilots leave due to LTD, and all of the widebody flying on the East. Reserves will become Lineholders, First Officer's will become Captains, and narrowbody pilots will become widebody pilots. This will increase our pay across-the-board and with the November Permanent Bid about to be released, you will see what I mean with significant US Airways plots vacancies and recalls.

Other benefits are the East pilots will keep our current line holding scheduling system, they will have signficant recalls/pilot hiring, increased DC Plan contributions, and $70 million in lump sum payments, which is about a $23,000 bonus pay per pilot.

What will the AWA pilots get during the next 7 to 8 year's? Nothing unless you enter Section 6 negotiations, which we would endorse and support. Unlike your MEC we are not against the AWA pilots obtaining a pay raise and we encourage you to do so through Section 6 negotiations.

Do the East pilots want to live under LOA 93? No, of course not, but it is better than having the Nicolau Award passed to the company and obtaining a joint contract. Why? If the East pilots upgrade to narrow or widebody Captain and then the Award is implemented AWA guys will come in on top of the East pilots and the East pilots will be career reserves. Or others they will never see Captain.

In my opinion, what the parties need to do follow the Rice Committee recommendations for a "reaslistic solution" to preserve pre-merger career expectations. One way to do that is separate contracts with separate operations that are permanent and provide scope protections. This would permit the AWA pilots to keep all of their PHX/LAS flying and the US Airways pilots would keep all East Coast-based flying. Furthermore, new contract progress could be made, each group could obtain a pay raise, and this toxic war would end.

If not, the East pilots are prepared to live under LOA 93 and then the AWA pilots will have a choice. Live under C-2004 or enter into Section 6 negotiations.

Finally, I encourage all AWA pilots to take a few minutes and view the video link below. I hope it will help you understand how the overwhelming majority if US Airways pilots feel.

Click here to view the video.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ussnark]

ExB717,

I suggest you look at the video to start this thread. Listen to Captain Stephan read Captain Gauthier's letter and then watch the end of the video with clips from the May 21 meeting.

It is fairly obvious to me that the Shuttle dudes wanted the US db retirement plan.

The only way to secure that for them was to contrive a way for the db plan to be terminated. Most Shuttle dudes without termination get nothing. With termination they get at least $1800 per month, some more, because of DOB, older than 52, they get twice what those younger than 52. Read the documents, do the math. The Shuttle dudes screwed us.

The east dudes are being fed yet another BOHICA moment.

I say, put all the A&W dudes at the bottom of the list of the new union. Screw them. Let them whine.

Like Islamic rulers not decrying violence, I have yet to hear of any A&W dude distance themselves from the west extremists.

 

[Ardenian]

Listen to Captain Stephan read Captain Gauthier's letter...

I know these two well. They are ALPA lifers who are only want to have control of your dues money. If they can't be ALPA, they'll fight tooth and nail to get a position with the "new" union. Watch what they say and do in the next few months.

Both have zero work ethic. Jack does little, if any, work. No weekends, evenings only for dinner paid by your dues. Gauthier is incredibly weak, and has absolutely NO leadership abilities.

What these two and Pollock have done with your money is criminal.

...many pilots believe the US Airways MEC is not representing the desires of the pilot group.

And this is exactly why the US Airways ALPA lifers will soon face life on the outside. Ask Pollock how much fun his life is now.

A certain LGA Captain is angling to get into a position with these two in the "new" union. Good luck, fool.

 

[ClueByFour]

I say, put all the A&W dudes at the bottom of the list of the new union. Screw them. Let them whine.

It's such a shame you guys are going to be stuck with Nicolau no matter who the representation is. You really, really need to stop believing those who are telling you otherwise.

 

[traderjake]

If necessary, the US Airways pilots are willing to live under LOA 93 and drag out our Section 6 negotiations for 5 years, if necessary, to prevent the Nicolau Award from proceeding.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

No we are not ( I can claim to speak for everyone too), especially after the retirement age is raised to 65 next year.

 

[luvn737s]

Like Islamic rulers not decrying violence, I have yet to hear of any A&W dude distance themselves from the west extremists.

The west extremists who believe in the rule of law and that binding arbitration is binding, as it would have been if Nicolau had determined that a staple job was his decision? Those "extremists"?

The time for compromise came long before Mr. Nicholau got involved. Now that ship has sailed.

What the heck is in the water out there that has otherwise sane men babbling like fools?

 

[Junebug172]

No we are not ( I can claim to speak for everyone too), especially after the retirement age is raised to 65 next year.

You see USA320Pilot, you guys are already imploding. Just as it was admitted here, it was admitted to on the Nat'l board as well.

No one wants to live under LOA93 any longer than they have to and you'll see the when the first TA comes out.

You're fantasy is collapsing.

 

[Junebug172]

The Nicolau Award may stand, but it is not going to be implemented

Regards,

USA320Pilot

That's it big guy, you're getting closer.

Before it was "The Nicolau Award will not stand!" Now its, "The Nicolau Award may stand."

Just one more step and you'll be free!!!

 

[AWA320]

My, my, my... such seething anger. I hope this guy takes some time off and composes himself or the FAA might want to look closely at his file when his medical comes due.

This post is splattered with so much denial and twisted expectations that it can't possibly be taken seriously by more rational people.
Refusing to negotiate off your DOH demand, thumbing your nose at a respected arbitrator that you helped select, then refusing to accept a ruling that you agreed to submit to, and then holding an entire organization and it's employees hostage to your demands... now THAT is extortion and blackmail.


No it's not. No it should not. That is simply an OPINION held by a small minority of the collective voice of a 60,000 member strong national union.
The essence of seniority in a deregulated industry without a national seniority list is career expectation and what position you hold when the merger takes place.
OK. So the majority has spoken (16 years ago) and you were out voted. What's your point? That you know better than the rest of ALPA? No, you just know what's better for you personally at this point in time. You guys love to point out that you have the majority and can impose your will on the smaller West, but apparently you don't like those rules either when they don't work in your favor.

The merger policy was changed to reflect a changed industry from the days of regulation. Most others (a majority... there's that word again) were able to clearly see that the old policy was inequitable and needed to change with the times. (Just like those of you arguing to change the age 60 rule. Or is this another double standard, that the only time rules should be updated is when it benefits you?)
Of course not. What does AWA have that you want except maybe a west domicile. But you sure do want to take a job away from a DAL pilot or a UAL pilot. Because that's what this is really about. The next big merger. Don't pretend that you weren't livid at the thought of a prenuptual agreement with UAL in 2001 that would have fenced you off the 777/747 forever. Don't expect anyone to forget your guys asking for UA's 747 manuals. Don't act like you guys were not the first ones lathering to trade in a 737 reserve position to fly as a line holder in a 757 or 767. The hypocrisy is sickening.
There's that reference to being the largest block again. I guess this individual fails to understand that the Nicolau award will follow them no matter who represents them. After all, it is binding. But far be it for me to stop you guys from leaving ALPA. Please do so already and stop threatening. ALPA will have a far larger problem (larger block, get it?) to contend with if they don't certify the list than if they do. No one is going to cave to a small group who is resorting to threats, blackmail, and extortion.

Well stated 767, well stated!!! None of us in the west care much about all that rhetoric from the east. It is symbolic of a 2 yr throwing a tantrum. They scream "we will decertify"!! Our position is do it!! Get on with it already. This would be just one more in a long line of stupid moves. Not to give it all away but imagine if you will almost 2000 pilots not contributing to your efforts, not paying any dues and doing the direct opposite of all you do. Now to that add the fact tha the west pilots within days would file a law suit against this new faction. They would be bankrupt in a matter weeks.

So you see all this posturing and childish displays are nothing more than distractions. The east pilots lose money day after day some will now retire under a bankruptcy contract (LOA93) They claim that the can handle that and LOA 93 is not a big deal however they are angry and begging for parity daily. I can't seem to figure that one out. They are upset because we now won't support their parity efforts, well why should we?? If they want better pay, better work rules, better vacation then they need to demand their MEC get to the table and stop all these foolish attempts to get out of an arbitration that they agreed to.

 

[exB717Flyer]

ExB717, I suggest you look at the video to start this thread. Listen to Captain Stephan read Captain Gauthier's letter and then watch the end of the video with clips from the May 21 meeting.

First of all, I'm truly honored, since you almost never respond to me. I just got done skimming through the video. I say skimming because I think I got the points very clearly without enduring the details. The AAA MEC is trying re-argue the case that Nicolau already ruled on and that the EC determined was done properly. You already know the Nic Award will not be altered by ALPA and certainly not by any court. Hence, the video is a waste of your dues money because it’s irrelevant.

There are many, many pilots waiting to send in their decertification card while they watch the Rice Committee.

So get on with it, already. You know you’re not going to get what you demand from ALPA. Of course, an in-house union won’t change anything either but since you feel you must I say go for it. Oh, and what are you gonna do if the decert drive fails?

If there is not a resolution to this problem like the company's suggestion then the wheels will come off of this place.

I’m calling your bluff. Do what you feel you must. I’m not afraid.

Moreover, the AWA MEC's actions and misrepresentation is increasing the East pilot resolve to fight the Nicolau Award forever, if necessary.

And your MEC and people like you increase our resolve to never negotiate under duress.

My intention in starting this debate is that the AWA MEC and apparently many AWA pilots believe the US Airways MEC is not representing the desires of the pilot group. As I indicated before nothing could be further from the truth.

I can’t know if your MEC is truly representing the majority of your pilots but I do know that your MEC is leading you down the primrose path again. Remember the transcripts! I read some of the daily summaries your MEC and/or Merger Committee put out. To paraphrase: “Our guys kicked their butts today. Nobody believed their witness. Their facts were all wrong.†It’s no wonder you guys were so shocked by the Award since your own union led you to believe things were going great. Now, Stephan says his goal is to overturn the Award. Since we all know that ain’t going to happen why hasn’t Stephan changed his goal? Why is he leading you down a black hole -- again?

If necessary, the US Airways pilots are willing to live under LOA 93 and drag out our Section 6 negotiations for 5 years, if necessary, to prevent the Nicolau Award from proceeding.

You presume the Company will allow separate operations indefinitely. (If I had to guess, I’d say that’s a bad presumption.) You also neglect to mention the Transition Agreement, which calls for continued negotiation towards a combined operation. Violating the TA will carry penalties.

What will the AWA pilots get during the next 7 to 8 year's? Nothing unless you enter Section 6 negotiations, which we would endorse and support.

The Company has already said they’re only interested in JNC talks and nothing else. But of course you know that.

Unlike your MEC we are not against the AWA pilots obtaining a pay raise and we encourage you to do so through Section 6 negotiations.

We’re not against you getting pay parity. With a joint CBA you’ll get it. We’re against you holding the Nic Award hostage to get it.

In my opinion, what the parties need to do follow the Rice Committee recommendations for a "reaslistic solution" to preserve pre-merger career expectations.

We’ll know more about what Rice has in mind after the meetings on the 16th. My guess is just more Prater-like politics and no action.

Furthermore, new contract progress could be made, each group could obtain a pay raise, and this toxic war would end.

Funny how your side started the war and then presumes to dictate how to end it. It won't work.

I hope it will help you understand how the overwhelming majority if US Airways pilots feel.

We know how you feel. You seem to think your resolve is greater than ours. You’re mistaken. Only your numbers are greater than ours. Your attempt to bully your way to get what you want has failed thus far and will eventually fail completely. Time is on our side.

 

[EastUS]

Well stated 767, well stated!!! None of us in the west care much about all that rhetoric from the east. It is symbolic of a 2 yr throwing a tantrum.

You didn't really say that??? "a 2 yr throwing a tantrum" perfectly sums up the entire AWA ST Nic position

Ah well...no sense wasting much time with you boys/girls today...it's a nice day outside...think I'll go out and play