United States economy doomed …

[PITbull]

I think this is a little more difficult to predict than the Lehman/No rescue or the Freddie/Fannie Rescue.

With that said, however, I think that any private intervention at this point would likely be a futile attempt. Thus, if I was a bookie, I would place better odds at a Fed-created conservatorship; moderate odds on a Fed gap-loan; low odds of a AIG bankruptcy filing without any Fed intervention. (Note, however, I am a better betting man than a bookie).

Pit, we may not need to wait too long to find out (if AIG needs to file for BK, it will likely need to do it by tomorrow night or Thursday morning). On another note, looks like airline stocks had a decent day. Looks like your LCC desicion looks a little better today than it did 2 days ago.

LCC does look much better, and tomorrow looks pretty good too. Just hope oil prices don't start creeping up to just kill the LCC run.

As an aside, I'm sure you already heard...The Feds have given a loan to AIG for $85B, and in return, an 80% stake. This will create a major dilution of shares. Any idea how long they plan to be stakeholders? Until the loan is paid?

So, any speculation on how much this deal is worth to the existing AIG common stock? (I have that too, like an idiot) :blink: Stock closed at $3.75, and its trading after market between $2.00 and $2.60.

I'll take even a wild guess....just don't say "0".

 

[freedom]

looks like the train hit again ....

lets all welcome AIG to the united states goverment....

choo choo ...

 

[Gilding the Lily]

LCC does look much better, and tomorrow looks pretty good too. Just hope oil prices don't start creeping up to just kill the LCC run.

As an aside, I'm sure you already heard...The Feds have given a loan to AIG for $85B, and in return, an 80% stake. This will create a major dilution of shares. Any idea how long they plan to be stakeholders? Until the loan is paid?

So, any speculation on how much this deal is worth to the existing AIG common stock? (I have that too, like an idiot) :blink: Stock closed at $3.75, and its trading after market between $2.00 and $2.60.

I'll take even a wild guess....just don't say "0".

Yep... heard it on the wire. This is a true "bailout." While it appears that common shareholders will take a haircut because of this move, I think most realize that they would have been completely out of the money in a bankruptcy. AIG was too leveraged, even with the extra 20b that NY freed up.

I think they will be stakeholders for the long-run. By "long-run", I mean at least until enough assets have been sold to pay for the Fed's loan. It is difficult to guess, at this time, the valuation of this... once news of how bad it really was (think next 24-48 hours) we should be able to guesstimate a bit better. What we do know now is that the additional $14.5b in collateral that was required as a covenant due to the credit downgrades was quite enough to put the company in severe financial distress.

 

[Bobbie]

Keeping in mind that the government is going to have to BORROW the money to bail these people out...more international debt means more foreign control means more interest-only payments on debt, etc. They're literally transferring the debt out of the United States banks and into the foreign banks on a silver platter, for no reason other than our collective American incompetence at running banks.

For shame.

 

[SolidCactus]

Keeping in mind that the government is going to have to BORROW the money to bail these people out...more international debt means more foreign control means more interest-only payments on debt, etc. They're literally transferring the debt out of the United States banks and into the foreign banks on a silver platter, for no reason other than our collective American incompetence at running banks.

For shame.

Yeah, what a bright future for us all. Unreal. More to come... Stay tuned.

 

[Freight train]

Yeah, what a bright future for us all. Unreal. More to come... Stay tuned.

"More to come....Stay tuned". Serious and Profound words, for sure !!
Regardless "how much of a Maverick" McCain can(sometimes be), "A leopard can NEVER change it's spots", meaning McCain is a REPUBLICAN, and NO republican should be awarded 4 More years @ "1600", under ANY circumstances. He SUPPORTS the Iraq mess like his "Buddy" BUSH(note the big HUG/head on shoulder picture of McCain/Bush), so unless you may be "Smoking CRACK", It's INSANE to give these incompetent Clowns a third term.

Don't like Obama ? Fine ! Stay home on 11/4. Write in the name of a REAL competent person. But to vote in the GOP for a third term =...you need Psychiatric HELP.

 

[Bobbie]

The country is essentially being operated like a struggling family who runs up $20,000 credit card bill, makes only the minimum payment and still can't make ends meet so they get another $20,000 credit card, pay only the min, and keep going. Eventually, they can't make the minimum payments fast enough, so they run into the check-cashing, payday advance, predatory lending practices, etc. This cycle does have an end and that end is receivership. Governments go bankrupt when people stop having money to lend to the governments.

The more debt you incur in relation to your income, the worse your credit gets. Minimum payments go up. Interest goes up. Eventually, the debtor is forced into bankruptcy and the lenders get a share of the assets, most of which they actually own because the debtor used their borrowed money to buy them.

Without this loose, pricey credit available, the Iraq war would be just a filthy thought in George W. Bush's mind...the government does not have the money to pay for it, didn't have the money to pay for it, and continues to borrow money to pay for it.

The U.S. only makes MINIMUM, INTEREST-ONLY payments on our debt currently. This is so reckless and so outrageous and yet every American seems to be in la-la-land about it all...jumping for joy at the $600 stimulus check they got which was paid for by loans we took out from the Chinese. I bought lottery tickets with my check.

Every American currently holds nearly $200,000 of Federal Government Debt on top of them...that's right out of the womb.

Reducing spending and increasing taxes is the only way. It's proven. It works. We have supported and elected officials who have created this massive government. We've either got to scale it back or find ways to pay for it domestically. Financing a tax cut by taking out a loan with the Chinese is not the way to "stimulate" the economy. It's a way to destroy it. We have to budget ourselves for surpluses and pay down the debt, slowly and methodically. And, above all else, we need to STOP BORROWING like a bunch of fools.

I predict it's going to take a full 30 years to recover from the spending that has gone on under George W. Bush. Think about the dollars we're talking about and the massive increase in government size. The cost of us operating our government now has dramatically increased. Combine that with a weaker dollar.

You get the picture.

 

[KCFlyer]

I predict it's going to take a full 30 years to recover from the spending that has gone on under George W. Bush. Think about the dollars we're talking about and the massive increase in government size. The cost of us operating our government now has dramatically increased. Combine that with a weaker dollar.

You get the picture.

Yet you are voting for 4 more years of the same thing.

 

[Bobbie]

Yet you are voting for 4 more years of the same thing.

In John McCain? The guy who ran against George W. Bush? Doubtful. Whoever gets elected is going to have a major mess to clean up. I'm voting for the "spend less" crowd and I do believe it will happen under a McCain administration. The Republican party machine cannot and will not allow us to continue down the path Bush has led us. Their party's future is dependent upon major change in their perceived ideology and I believe we're going to see a more "true" Republican than we've had in a long time.

At this stage of the game, I'm of the conclusion that the federal government does not have the answers. I want more state involvement, more in line with the Constitution than the totalitarian socialist dictatorship that Obama wants to create.

You're going to need to get used to it. Voters do strange things in the voting booths and no matter how many say they're voting for Obama, they're going to look at that name and realize just who they're going to vote for and they're going to deliver a McCain victory. Call that what you wish, but this country isn't going to elect anyone like Obama.

Lifelong liberal and fundamentalist Christian here. I talk to my friends at church and I do a lot of community outreach with these Godless types. I can tell you that no one here is being swept up by Obama... The vibe I'm getting is FEAR more than anything else. He's the most Godless candidate out there, far worse than Bill Clinton.

 

[chucky]

You're going to need to get used to it. Voters do strange things in the voting booths and no matter how many say they're voting for Obama, they're going to look at that name and realize just who they're going to vote for and they're going to deliver a McCain victory. Call that what you wish, but this country isn't going to elect anyone like Obama.

Yes voters do strange things in the voting booths, and they better pray McCain
lives out his 4 yr term when they pull that lever cause they might get stuck with this....

for President :down: :down:

 

[KCFlyer]

In John McCain? The guy who ran against George W. Bush? Doubtful.

The guy who ran against George Bush is not the same guy running today. When that guy ran in the primaries almost a year ago, he came in dead last. He "adopted the party line" and got the nomination.

Whoever gets elected is going to have a major mess to clean up. I'm voting for the "spend less" crowd and I do believe it will happen under a McCain administration.

I don't see how he can spend less in a war that is costing billions of dollars per week.

The Republican party machine cannot and will not allow us to continue down the path Bush has led us. Their party's future is dependent upon major change in their perceived ideology and I believe we're going to see a more "true" Republican than we've had in a long time.

I don't. I think that the far right has taken the GOP so far to the right that they'd "eat their own" if they did anything that went against the "platform".

You're going to need to get used to it. Voters do strange things in the voting booths and no matter how many say they're voting for Obama, they're going to look at that name and realize just who they're going to vote for and they're going to deliver a McCain victory. Call that what you wish, but this country isn't going to elect anyone like Obama.

I still haven't decided if I am casting a protest vote of "Mickey Mouse" or voting for Obama. I heard his speech in Golden, CO yesterday, and I have to say, he made a LOT of sense. Enough that I might just pull the lever for Obama. McSame called him a "political opportunist" for remarking about the failure of financial institutions...and McSame's financial guru, Phil Gramm, is the architect of the financial meltdown in the first place. And McSame still hasn't ruled him out as Treasury secretary if he's elected. That should make pulling the lever for Obama easier.

Lifelong liberal and fundamentalist Christian here. I talk to my friends at church and I do a lot of community outreach with these Godless types. I can tell you that no one here is being swept up by Obama... The vibe I'm getting is FEAR more than anything else. He's the most Godless candidate out there, far worse than Bill Clinton.

The most godless person is Bush, but that's another topic. I really hate to say this, but I don't think God is running for president. Look at what voting for "God fearing" candidates over the past 30 years has earned them....legal abortions and crumbling job and financial markets. And...as November gets nearer, my informal polling of car bumper stickers here in red state Kansas is - Obama is FAR more popular than McSame. There are about as many Obama stickers this year as there were W04 stickers in 2004. And that's a lot. Oh yeah...I have only seen about 2 McCain stickers.

 

[Bobbie]

You're living in an internet fantasy world.

 

[RDU Jetblast]

That should make pulling the lever for Obama easier



I just found out my job is being exported because there is an $8mil tax savings every year. To generate 8 mil of wigets/yr we'd have to create 6 jobs and spend 2 mil for more equipment. It is more profitable to move all of production off shore and lay off 25 people. Less payroll, less insurance costs, and they walk away with an automatic 8 mil. God Bless America.

Pull that lever for Obama! I know I will.

 

[Freight train]

The guy who ran against George Bush is not the same guy running today. When that guy ran in the primaries almost a year ago, he came in dead last. He "adopted the party line" and got the nomination.

I don't see how he can spend less in a war that is costing billions of dollars per week.

I don't. I think that the far right has taken the GOP so far to the right that they'd "eat their own" if they did anything that went against the "platform".

I still haven't decided if I am casting a protest vote of "Mickey Mouse" or voting for Obama. I heard his speech in Golden, CO yesterday, and I have to say, he made a LOT of sense. Enough that I might just pull the lever for Obama. McSame called him a "political opportunist" for remarking about the failure of financial institutions...and McSame's financial guru, Phil Gramm, is the architect of the financial meltdown in the first place. And McSame still hasn't ruled him out as Treasury secretary if he's elected. That should make pulling the lever for Obama easier.



The most godless person is Bush, but that's another topic. I really hate to say this, but I don't think God is running for president. Look at what voting for "God fearing" candidates over the past 30 years has earned them....legal abortions and crumbling job and financial markets. And...as November gets nearer, my informal polling of car bumper stickers here in red state Kansas is - Obama is FAR more popular than McSame. There are about as many Obama stickers this year as there were W04 stickers in 2004. And that's a lot. Oh yeah...I have only seen about 2 McCain stickers.

Goodness gracious I HOPE your right !!
In my Entire life, I'm Amazed(beyond belief) as to the Amount of republican voters Who Can NOT think for themselves ! Since all republican voters are not in a financial position to HAVE to vote republican, the question then becomes, Why do the others vote Gop ?(For those of you who DO fall into this catagory, PLEASE spare me, AND yourself the BULL CRAP about "less Government") The answer is Very Clear. Their thought process has been(is being) Manipulated via the Pulpit on Sunday Mornings,(Notice I did NOT say on friday evening's(at sundown)/Saturdays), with 2 "rocket boosters" named Rush + Sean :down: :down: This Then comes down to RELIGION. The SAME religion, that should NEVER be mixed with Politics !! The definition of "lemmings" does NOT even come Close to describing these people ! The saddest FACT of all, is that they 1. Wont admit it, or 2. Don't even have a Clue, that "it" is happening to them !

A Wise Man once told me to be Very wary of the guy with a "fish symbol" on the rear of his/her car. :ninja:

 

[Bobbie]

I don't think for myself in any way, shape, or form. I'm proud of it! I put everything in the hands of God and He guides me. I have confidence in His plan for me.