Unions dig in for Delta fight

[Dignity]

Alice Cramden,
All employees have a "core function" regardless of the job title, they are all important for the daily
success and the operations of the airline. The pilot situation, as I see it, they are qualified to fly generally a specific aircraft and limited to bidding that aircraft. It appears many have been waiting years in order to
transfer, train and move to either seat(on another aircraft). When you have individuals who have been waiting for bidding on new aircraft or or in this case a "career expectation" the merging of seniority list in that instance becomes... a bit more complicated, due to the fact the pilot has been limited, and has been waiting. It is irrelevant how many fly in the cockpit when you have to take into consideration the total number of the entire group who has different expectation or expect to remain on their current aircraft(you have to look at the total numbers not how many in the cockpit at one time). If the airline had one specific aircraft fleet(pure 737) it would only make sense that it would be D.O.H. simply because that is the only aircraft available to bid. When you take into consideration an airline may have 5 aircraft plus and also adding more to the fleet, based on the fact the pilot has been limited(because of fences,arbitrator awards, mergers) the process almost always ends up in arbitration, and the only one who truly is guaranteed to be happy(when all is said and done) is the pilot who gets the number one position on the list!

 

[Dignity]

Kev3188,
One thing I have noted with your posts is your 'no nonsense' approach, your ability to focus
and see what needs to be done in a simple, concise, get it done line of thinking (I like that a lot)..
however, everyone will not see a situation the same..and sometimes...not see it someone's way ..at all.
That is why it is imperative to sit down, meet and discuss... It is so important especially when
taking into consideration a group who does not generally negotiate anything...to get them to understand..
if sitting down together and discussing seniority integration is important to you, you now understand and feel why its important for our group to sit down with management and negotiate a contract.

I hope you have a pleasant day.

 

[cooper43]

I know I will catch some flack about my thinking here but as far as F/A's go, we are a little more similar to pilots than say gate agents. And that is because our pay and quality of life is determined on what we fly. So if I am a flight attendant at Delta with the opportunity to fly all over Europe (many more destinations than NWA) as well as South and Central America, versus NWA Asian destinations which they themselves fly only a portion of those trips I would not think that that is bringing the same things to the table. What is being brought to the table should be taken into account when decided on what is fair and EQUITABLE. Equitable means to have value. Now I am not saying that I know the value of what both sides offer. If it goes to arbitration that will be the job of the arbitrator. And I will have to live with what this arbitrator says but I do feel it is obvious that Delta has more, quantity and diversity wise, international routes. If we do go DOH, we would have to have a fence agreement for many years to protect current f/a's from both sides. I would rather fly the trips that we have instead of NWA trips. It would be a step down in my eyes to just fly back and forth to NRT or AMS (just examples). Those who only feel that strict doh is the only way to go for inflight probably want to gain something, and those against doh want to hold on to what they have. Ok let the Sh*& start hitting the fan. LOL

p.s. this is just my opinion and recognize I am just one person, I am just expressing myself, in the end I will work with what ever happens. But one must express thier opinions if you want to be heard.

 

[Dignity]

Cooper43,
Your opinion is important, I feel everyone should have a voice regarding their careers(in all aspects).
However just a little bit of clarification,
We do not fly portions of Asia flights, we fly all of it. US to Asia, all flights are exclusively US crews including US Purser and IFSR, or all flights are mixed crews from several US bases including US Purser and IFSR. Within Asia flights are mixed US and Pacific crews, with a US Purser, and some are a US Purser and one US FA and a Pacific crew. But "we" US Flight Attendant are on all of them(in one way or another).
I will state with an almost 100 percent certainty, the Pacific division of In flight Service is not going away and you will all soon understand why it cannot or 'will not'. You will also learn why the NRT hub and associated flights are one of the most important aspects of the completion of the merger. Because of the limitations of slots allowed into Japan(the ability to hub) and intra Asia, including the AMS hub, every Country, every State, every City the airline will serve is important. This merger(the way I see it) is significant more so than I can ever attempt to explain on this forum, you will learn that in time as well.
Cooper, when you say that it is a step down to fly to Japan or The Netherlands, you may have unknowingly insulted
a great number of people and their culture, I just would like for you to understand that what you say or write matters when working for an airline that serves different countries(in a forum available to the public). But I fully understand you were likely implying it would be limiting your choices of flights, not necessarily a step down as insulting, however people interpret differently.
I grew up on a 747 and the DC-10 and had the incredible pleasure of not only having the extreme privilege to fly into Japan
and visit the Pacific rim, but must say in all my travels those experiences have been the most memorable, combined with the DC-10 flights to The Netherlands learning about their rich history and incredible architectural design.
I look forward via my colleagues, to hear the reports of how the seniority integration is proceeding from both groups after the close of the merger... during those important meetings.
It is important to understand each groups contribution is equally significant, while remembering that 'personal opinion' regarding type of flying is in fact, an individual 'personal preference' at the same time realizing..All flying is important, keeping in mind what will be fair for the entire combined group.
with that,
I wish you a good day!

 

[bagboy]

With all due respect, you are over thinking this one... Outside of the pilots, and their specific A/C types, everyone at NW/DL performs the same work. Sure each carrier may have different policies, or procedures, but at the end of the day, an F/A at DL has the same core function as one at NW. Same goes for Res, the ramp, ticket agents, dispatch, and so on...

As for career expectations, I would say we each had the equal "prospect" of survival, so that's equal too.

That's why DOH seniority and/or seniority in classification are the only equitable way. There's no need to "workshop" a seniority list when the answer is plain as day.



Exactly. Sitting down together should take 5 minutes if everyone's intentions are true.

My bet is all groups go to arbitration, though...

Same goes with me Kev. DOH is the only way it can be done. It has been the rule of the business in many mergers. Anyone who wants to start this "my airline is better that yours" crap, I'll fill you in on where to stick it. A ramper is a ramper, an agent is an agent, an f/a is a f/a, no matter if you work for NW or DL. DOH for all.

 

[Dignity]

Bagboy,
I believe that 90 percent of the people when saying something negatively may not necessarily
mean what they say, generally its just something said out of frustration, what is right and not
being respected or just a host of different reasons. I believe you fall into that 90 percent range
when you implied for someone to "stick it" and if for some reason you fall in that 10 percent, then
all I can say to others is..keep your head up.
Bagboy, I believe it is evident the majority believe in D.O.H. for integration so its not the ones
who believe in that principal that you need to be concerned with its the ones who may necessarily
not quite see eye to eye and telling them to "stick it" isnt going to help!
Lets try to work together here or at least attempt to do so because we have guaranteed arbitration if needed.
A Seniority Integration meeting is necessary simply because you first have to find out
where both parties are standing. It is quite possible the other party will fully agree with
D.O.H. or a mutual agreement and the issue is resolved. But you see, you cannot find out
where anyone stands until that meeting has commensed, especially when the management is not
being clear how it will be handled. Its just a part of the process, it does not mean that
seniority is negotiable.

I hope you have a great day.

 

[cooper43]

I knew some would misunderstand what I was trying to say that is why I anticipated some flack. I am not saying that Delta is better than NWA. I am just expressing my opinion that to ME, (and I can only speak for myself) the kinds and diversity of routes one brings to the table should be considered. If we do go with DOH, I hope we do devise some type of fence system because I got hired at Delta a decade ago and I applied to Delta because of our routes. One can see how it might be dissapointing to work ten years in order to get to work certain destinations to see that dream disappear. If that is an insult that I do apologize it was not meant to be. Also I know that nwa f/a's fly all their flights to euroupe and asia from the US but could you tell me from the hub in NRT, what is the % of positions open for people to bid throughout asia? Also do those positions usually go senior or junior. I had a friend who use to work for NWA and was very junior and always got called out for those trips where he would get sent to nrt and work back and forth to china and he said that he would be the only us f/a and he was very junior, is that still the case? Most of DL international trips are 3 day, what is the length of trips usually to asia for NW? Again just interested in info. I do not mean to insult anyone and if after negotiations DOH is agreed upon I will happily do what I always do and be happy. I am just glad that we are at least going thru the process of talking.

 

[Kev3188]

If we do go with DOH, I hope we do devise some type of fence system

A fence agreement would be essential. You do realize the company does not want that, right?

One can see how it might be dissapointing to work ten years in order to get to work certain destinations to see that dream disappear.

You think that's bad, try having your airline disappear altogether.... :down:

 

[cooper43]

A fence agreement would be essential. You do realize the company does not want that, right?




You think that's bad, try having your airline disappear altogether.... :down:

yes that would be a disappointment and I would be upset also, however I'm talking about ones ability to keep their current quality of life. I am only saying that in my opinion "inflight" not other departments but only "inflight" employees stand a chance to either lose a lot of gain a lot based on how senority is handled. Now I am only speaking for inflight because I have no idea about any other department. So please do not interpet what I am saying as that inflight is better than other departments because that is NOT what I am saying. I am only saying that it matters to me whether I able to fly domestic or international. I hope to be able to hold flights to europe sometime in my career and I am close now but depending on how things go I could be set back a long time. Isn't it possible to weave people in together? Like a zipper, so that one group would not be advantaged more than another group? what would be more even (and i am asking because i really do not know) DOH or a blend of 1 for 1 ? Just wondering.

 

[Kev3188]

... I'm talking about ones ability to keep their current quality of life.

So am I; or maybe more importantly, my job at all (I don't live/work in a hub).

I am only saying that in my opinion "inflight" not other departments but only "inflight" employees stand a chance to either lose a lot of gain a lot based on how senority is handled.

*All* depts. stand to lose if this isn't handled correctly.

 

[tech2101]

A fence agreement would be essential. You do realize the company does not want that, right?




You think that's bad, try having your airline disappear altogether.... :down:

Amen Kev!

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

yes that would be a disappointment and I would be upset also, however I'm talking about ones ability to keep their current quality of life. I am only saying that in my opinion "inflight" not other departments but only "inflight" employees stand a chance to either lose a lot of gain a lot based on how senority is handled. Now I am only speaking for inflight because I have no idea about any other department. So please do not interpet what I am saying as that inflight is better than other departments because that is NOT what I am saying. I am only saying that it matters to me whether I able to fly domestic or international. I hope to be able to hold flights to europe sometime in my career and I am close now but depending on how things go I could be set back a long time. Isn't it possible to weave people in together? Like a zipper, so that one group would not be advantaged more than another group? what would be more even (and i am asking because i really do not know) DOH or a blend of 1 for 1 ? Just wondering.

Cooper:
I've taken a break from this board for a while, but after reading your thread of postings, I must comment.
You have an attitude which seems to say that airline life owes you something.
Take it from me. I have been here almost 30 years. I have been in bases that had Int'l flying and then EVERY ONE of those flights were eliminated. Did you know that A Days have gone up to 28 years in LAX?? Close to that in SLC and about 23 years in ATL. This means people who were off reserve for 20 years are now having to do it even if for just 3 days a month. Do you think 10, 15, 20 years ago they thought they would ever be "on call" again?? That's life in this industry. It may not seem fair/equitable but that's the way it is. I'm sorry if this merger might upset your idea of what you should be holding at your seniority but that's the way it works.

I have a hunch from your postings that you are NYC-based and under 10 years. I'm glad for your group but I have to tell you, you guys, at your seniority level, have been more than just a little spoiled. I hate to tell you this but if you want guarantees, maybe you should go into a growing field like biotech or healthcare. You ain't gonna find it here.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ONLY fair way in this type of true merger (not acquisition like PanAm) is Date of Hire. Period.
Let me wise you up to airline life: THERE IS NO GUARANTEE OF ANYTHING; We stay in this life because either we love it and/or it brings us much flexibility in our lives.

 

[Dignity]

Lukeaislewalker,
The A-days is why a 'ratio of system seniority' could cause a labor relations issue(if done unfairly or perceived to have violated system seniority)
There is no way any airline company(in particular) can expect to ratio an employee ahead of another based
solely on preserving their quality of life and dismissing another. Why will A-day be an issue
with a ratio placement of seniority? First of all this entire industry is based on seniority..with
that said.., For example, a company cannot place a 10 year employee and slot them ahead of 20 year employee
and subject the 20 year employee to A-days while the 10 year employee holds a block(without one day of A-days) or the potential of not being subjected to A-days. Also a 10 year employee could also have the ability to eventually transfer(some time in the future) to another base and use that
newly ratio seniority number to displace or subject a current 20 year employee to A-days and the 10 year employee holds block. It is a total violation of seniority(when the merged employee has not been subjected to re-apply for their same job) of course some will say that it would not affect base seniority, but eventually at some point in the future it would, it will... because people will transfer at some point..
Can you see how this might cause a little bit of an issue especially when one group has a straight reserve that may change to A-days? When seniority is not respected, it causes
labor concerns that may never go away, and no amount of money, perks, benefits or 'pat on the back' on how much of a good job the employee is doing, will ever fix it. D.O.H. and the assignment of A-days..well, someone may not be thrilled about it but there is no questioning the assignment of reserve when done by strict system seniority as it should be always outlined.
One must understand ratio of seniority goes both ways. If a 10 year employee is ratio into a 20 year seniority range, to be fair...the 20 year employee(subject to ratio) should also be ratio into the 30 year range(especially in a top heavy seniority list). Speaking for myself here, I totally understand the concern regarding the potential of a new list and why some want to have that meeting(I believe it is necessary), but one must keep in mind that meeting should focus on "we" not "me".

On another note! I really like your screen name!

 

[Dignity]

Cooper43,

There is a Swedish Proverb that says..

"Worry gives a small thing a big shadow"


Have a nice evening.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Lukeaislewalker,
The A-days is why a 'ratio of system seniority' could cause a labor relations issue(if done unfairly or perceived to have violated system seniority)
There is no way any airline company(in particular) can expect to ratio an employee ahead of another based
solely on preserving their quality of life and dismissing another. Why will A-day be an issue
with a ratio placement of seniority? First of all this entire industry is based on seniority..with
that said.., For example, a company cannot place a 10 year employee and slot them ahead of 20 year employee
and subject the 20 year employee to A-days while the 10 year employee holds a block(without one day of A-days) or the potential of not being subjected to A-days. Also a 10 year employee could also have the ability to eventually transfer(some time in the future) to another base and use that
newly ratio seniority number to displace or subject a current 20 year employee to A-days and the 10 year employee holds block. It is a total violation of seniority(when the merged employee has not been subjected to re-apply for their same job) of course some will say that it would not affect base seniority, but eventually at some point in the future it would, it will... because people will transfer at some point..
Can you see how this might cause a little bit of an issue especially when one group has a straight reserve that may change to A-days? When seniority is not respected, it causes
labor concerns that may never go away, and no amount of money, perks, benefits or 'pat on the back' on how much of a good job the employee is doing, will ever fix it. D.O.H. and the assignment of A-days..well, someone may not be thrilled about it but there is no questioning the assignment of reserve when done by strict system seniority as it should be always outlined.
One must understand ratio of seniority goes both ways. If a 10 year employee is ratio into a 20 year seniority range, to be fair...the 20 year employee(subject to ratio) should also be ratio into the 30 year range(especially in a top heavy seniority list). Speaking for myself here, I totally understand the concern regarding the potential of a new list and why some want to have that meeting(I believe it is necessary), but one must keep in mind that meeting should focus on "we" not "me".

On another note! I really like your screen name!

Thanks!
And don't worry about me...you're "preaching to the choir" !!

As an aside, if you're a NW f/a and you're concerned about our Adays, you need to get the word out to your peers (esp those in the slightly more senior bases) that are mid to mid/upper level seniority (15-27 years) that they may very well be subject to them. It's just 3 days per month but boy are you at their mercy those 3 days! It can sometimes be a bit trying and somewhat of a culture shock esp if you haven't been used to being on reserve for the past 20 years. Also, if your peers commute, they may have to incur extra expenses by getting a hotel room at their base while they are on call. The positive is that you can preference a trip you see on the open time the day before, but if there's nothing to pref or you don't get your pref choice (occassionally they make mistakes; when you call them on it, they (scheduling) just says "oops, sorry"), you're on call with as little as 2 hours notice before the trip.

I'm not sure I read your post correctly, but if you feel our A day system is a violation of seniority (for mid and upper level seniority), then that's something that you will have to consider when deciding to vote for the union and whether or not you would want to go back to a straight reserve sytem for each bases most jr. f/a's if and when a new contract is negotiated. (Personally, I think there should be some compromise between the two.) It's a very touch subject, obviously, acc. to your respective seniority. Basically Delta "threw a bone" as it were, to the junior f/a's about 2 or 3 years ago at the expense of the mid/upper level seniority. I can understand it to a point, as straight reserve was getting very long in some domiciles with the lack of hiring. But remember... no one voted on this change. It just happened. That's the way things work around here. Best to you and good luck.