union power

[Ken MacTiernan]

Nothing was taken from us Chuck, OUR union voted the 2003 concession in. We are employed by AA to fix aircraft. Plane comes in we fix it. That is our job at AA. I believe you work at SAN, so by your reasoning you should not see any profits from the wide body's that fly out MIA, or when the company loses a lot of money for a quarter we don't get paid. If your going to accuse the executives of lying to employees, share holders, banks. you should back that up with facts instead of what you think or old rhetoric.

It seems you still can't form an intelligent response other then the same old talking points.You seem like a guy that complains all the time. You are not worthy of my time.

Spoken like a true snake oil salesman. 28 1/2% of pay and benefits were taken from us. How is this factual? Because that 28 1/2% has NOT been returned.

I am accusing management of lying without facts? Now you are showing your inability to process reality. What about the "shared sacrifice" slogan the twu and company was singing 7 years ago? I am sorry, I took that term at literal value, silly me, I should have known better. "Shared sacrifice" didn't mean shared EQUAL sacrifice. If that was true then twu international and management would have also received 28 1/2% cut in their pay and benefits also. What was I thinking?

I am not worthy of your time? That is very true because no amount of reasoning with facts will educate an individual such as yourself, who has no personal stake with the ratification of this ta. Remain behind that curtain.

 

[KCKKen]

WOW, decided to stop by and see how my "previous life" employer was fairing on the ol' board here, and guess what I see: more people content to live on their knees. I would suggest that those not content with the current conditions look for another career FAST, because these weak-kneed sheep will vote that POS TA in and you'll eventually be asked for more and more give-backs. It's happened in the past, and with far too may like the company/union lemmings posting here, it will happen again.

I wish you the best, but I'm not hopeful you'll get it. Takes a backbone, a sack and a pair in it to stand up and demand fair treatment. Simply put, all they need to ask for is a universal "me too" clause, whereby should management get anything (raise or compensation of any kind) the workers get it as well. If workers take a pay cut, the exact same percentage cut should come out of each and every member of management's pay. (that ought to get the anti-labor types' panties in a wad really fast!)

You think there aren't comparable jobs out there? Here's what I have NOW:

*pay raise from what I had at AA (started out $0.50+ more per hour than I left AA with)
*full company-paid medical and dental insurance, far better vision coverage than AA
*company-provided tools, vehicle and safety gear
*paid lunch, 0800 -- 1600 Monday through Friday
*time-and-a-half after hours call-in
*double-time on Sunday, double-time on holidays
*secure work environment (this job will always be in demand)
*far better working conditions than AA (especially MCI)


All of this in a "bad" economy. There are jobs like this out there, I'm sure not that out of the ordinary.

Simple fact is there are far too many trolls who are fat, dumb and happy living off the scraps (mis)management will throw them, and believe the union (if that's what you would call this company-fronted group of lackeys) will "get 'em next time."

 

[Skymess]

WOW, decided to stop by and see how my "previous life" employer was fairing on the ol' board here, and guess what I see: more people content to live on their knees. I would suggest that those not content with the current conditions look for another career FAST, because these weak-kneed sheep will vote that POS TA in and you'll eventually be asked for more and more give-backs. It's happened in the past, and with far too may like the company/union lemmings posting here, it will happen again.

I wish you the best, but I'm not hopeful you'll get it. Takes a backbone, a sack and a pair in it to stand up and demand fair treatment. Simply put, all they need to ask for is a universal "me too" clause, whereby should management get anything (raise or compensation of any kind) the workers get it as well. If workers take a pay cut, the exact same percentage cut should come out of each and every member of management's pay. (that ought to get the anti-labor types' panties in a wad really fast!)

You think there aren't comparable jobs out there? Here's what I have NOW:

*pay raise from what I had at AA (started out $0.50+ more per hour than I left AA with)
*full company-paid medical and dental insurance, far better vision coverage than AA
*company-provided tools, vehicle and safety gear
*paid lunch, 0800 -- 1600 Monday through Friday
*time-and-a-half after hours call-in
*double-time on Sunday, double-time on holidays
*secure work environment (this job will always be in demand)
*far better working conditions than AA (especially MCI)


All of this in a "bad" economy. There are jobs like this out there, I'm sure not that out of the ordinary.

Simple fact is there are far too many trolls who are fat, dumb and happy living off the scraps (mis)management will throw them, and believe the union (if that's what you would call this company-fronted group of lackeys) will "get 'em next time."

Thanks for visiting. Do you have travel passes at your new job?

 

[KCKKen]

Thanks for visiting. Do you have travel passes at your new job?

Well, 1) I get "travel privileges" with my part-time government employer (ANG), they're free but they're far from first-class
2) Since I actually have far better pay now (look at what your medical/dental benefits cost ya -- mine are company-paid) I can afford to buy any air/rail/ship travel I want to do -- and it sure won't be stand-by!

I understand some like to travel more than I do (never used my AA travel privileges, last trip I took was on TWA) but that's about the only perk AA employees have that I don't, and I think what I have sure makes up for that.

 

[Kev3188]

I agree, get what we can now and fight for more during the next contract after the economy picks up.

Ah yes... The ol' "we'll get 'em next time, brother."

How's that worked out for everyone?

 

[eolesen]

Thanks for visiting. Do you have travel passes at your new job?

Who needs travel passes if you can actually afford to buy a ticket?

 

[Thomas Paine]

Each group has to weigh the threat of their replacement.

How short and ugly can AA get with their FA training, 1 week? 5 days?

How fast can a cabin cleaner get outsourced? Not sure those TWU members could get to Home Depot to buy boards for strike signs before that can happen.

How fast can you train a pilot to fly a AA jet? Not real fast. It runs about 6 weeks, and capacity is about 60/month.

Every group has to weigh the risks involved. It doesn't sound like the NWA guys did their homework.

As for pay, I have no problem with AA Executives using SWA/FDX/UPS Management pay for setting their own payrates. They also shouldn't have a problem with us doing the same.

The AMFA-NWA strike was about Capital making an example out of workers, and it appears that many are falling for it. Yes sometimes labor loses in a strike but if they refuse to strike at any cost then they always lose , and Capital wins at zero cost. NWA was an investment for the industry, and the weak minded insure a return on the investment.

There's a lot more to the NWA strike than many apprear to be aware of.

First of all it cost NWA a ton of money to break the mechanics union, they started recruiting and training mechanics a year ahead of time. They spent more to break the mechanics than it would have cost to pay them and now NWA doesnt exist anymore. This strike happened when there were a lot of recently laid off mechanics on the street. NWA actively rectruited in those places where bases were closed or saw big furloughs such as Indianapolis, Kansas City and Tulsa. Even with what would seem to be a huge supply of available mechanics NWA was not able to recruit what they wanted, they came up short. Most of the job loses for aircraft maintenance over the last five years have not been from layoffs, instead its been from retirements and record numbers of resignations as mechanics take their skills to other industries. I've read here where certain cities such as New York are already seeing a shortage of mechanics. The mechanics at NWA knew about the recruitment program but there wasnt much they could do about it. If they had targeted the pilots the result would have been no different since the pool of pilots is larger than the pool of mechanics. Lorenzo proved that with Continental. Colgan Air showed us the dangers of using poorly skilled but cheap pilots. The flying public has been lucky that there hasnt been a similar maintenace based incident, yet, although NWA did see a spike.

Next, what many people forget is that when the mechanics walked out at NWA they knew they werent going back. The offer on the table would have been voted down by any union because the offer not only called for concessions but for eliminating more than half of the workers. Ratification would have required workers to vote for eliminating their own jobs. Mach85 would you have voted yes to cut pay and benifits and put yourself out on the street anyway?

Finally, what put the mechanics in an impossible situation, since there was no way they could vote YES was the fact that the other unions on the property all turned into scabs. These unions encouraged their members to assist the company in breaking AMFA . They had all agreed to concessions, but none of them had the prospect of voting at least half of themselves out of work along with the concessions. In the end NWA was bought out by Delta and they all got what they deserved, except maybe the pilots, who lucked out because Delta's pilts are ALPA.

In the meantime the mechanics from NWA have moved on to other endeavors where many report that they earn more money and dont have to put up with the BS anymore. We often see people say "Look what happened to AMFA at NWA", but those people are never the mechanics from NWA. I havent seen one yet say "We should have voted YES for the concessions".

 

[Thomas Paine]

How much is our pension worth when comparing pay against airlines that don't have the defined pension plan? Those same airlines also don't have base maintenance (less overhead, less mechanics and support staff).

Look at your total value statement to see what your pension costs the company. Its been shown on several occasions, ( I believe by FWAAA) that our Pension is cheaper than Souhwests 401k match per person.

 

[Hopeful]

Look at your total value statement to see what your pension costs the company. Its been shown on several occasions, ( I believe by FWAAA) that our Pension is cheaper than Souhwests 401k match per person.

AA contributed $1200 to my pension last year. Had it been a 3% 401k match, it would have cost AA approximately $2100 and if it were a 5% match.....$3500...

Sounds to me like AA has a nice deal with our traditional DB plan.

 

[The Goose]

Look at your total value statement to see what your pension costs the company. Its been shown on several occasions, ( I believe by FWAAA) that our Pension is cheaper than Souhwests 401k match per person.

That begs the question - If this is so, why is it such a point of contention? Is it only a union-initiated sticking point? Surely, if only frozen, those near retirement wouldn't mind funding a 401k that received a decent percentage of matching funds.

Personally, I'm not very enthralled re: being dependent on a company like AMR to fairly administer anything they might believe could be used to the corporation's benefit - as the old simile goes, "I trust them about as far as I could throw a bull by the tail", considering their propensity to play games with their employees as we've seen in the last 7 years..

Freeze the pension or buy it out for a fair sum placed in the employee's 401k funds (as was done by another employer of mine 30+ years ago) and initiate another "PlAAn" for everyone with a decent (not less than 5% match). Again, the TWU is trying to make political hay over nothing, but I believe it's far more nefarious that that.

One way or another, we (the workers) won't lose this pension - even worst case (if it's turned over to the PBGC), it will simply delay retirement plans for some but does have a maximum of greater than $40k per year. HOWEVER ... does everyone remember "why" Carty was supposedly forced from AMR's top job? It was over the establishment of an executive slush fund that wouldn't have come to light until after the contract voting was done, were it not for the supposed "screw-up" in the FA's voting. Is anyone so stupid as to think this slush fund was solely Carty's doing even though he was the one chosen to fall on the sword and take one for the team?

The slush fund was established to pay (as we were told) retirement benefits to the top executives who may not get their "due" (remember the max) should the PBGC be "awarded" administration of the AMR retirement funds. Should this happen, executives will be paid from the fund in excess of what the PBGC insures. If the pension is frozen or done away with, one would think the original $46 million (plus earnings and contributions, of course) wouldn't go very far (consider the salaries of the hogs at the trough). Therefore, the pension has to stay in force to pay for the lavish retirements of these SOBs without a severe depletion of this slush fund - we're taken care of rather nicely (even with PBGC involvement), but only commencing at age 65 - the execs would be rather screwed were they subject to our pension limitations? Poor babies.

Another thing to consider is the issue of this pension being non-portable. Should one die before retiring how much does one think his/her heirs will receive from this pension for their lifetime of labor? A 401k goes to one's family/heirs as a part of one's assets held by one's estate. Not so with this pension as it's company controlled. True, the wife get's a percentage if it's set up that way, but not the entire amount of the savings.

That begs the question, again, Who the TWU is really working for while on our dime?

Boomer needs to get in on this - he's got a pretty good financial mind and is good at dissecting this stuff.

Your opinion re: this Mr. Boomer sir?

 

[The Goose]

Look at your total value statement to see what your pension costs the company. Its been shown on several occasions, ( I believe by FWAAA) that our Pension is cheaper than Souhwests 401k match per person.

I made that same comment some time ago and was called a liar - so much for mechanics reading things ...

 

[FWAAA]

One way or another, we (the workers) won't lose this pension - even worst case (if it's turned over to the PBGC), it will simply delay retirement plans for some but does have a maximum of greater than $40k per year. HOWEVER ... does everyone remember "why" Carty was supposedly forced from AMR's top job? It was over the establishment of an executive slush fund that wouldn't have come to light until after the contract voting was done, were it not for the supposed "screw-up" in the FA's voting. Is anyone so stupid as to think this slush fund was solely Carty's doing even though he was the one chosen to fall on the sword and take one for the team?

About the bolded portion - you're correct, except for the really big dogs at your airline - the guys with the funny hats who fly the planes. If the pension is terminated and turned over to the PBGC, the pilots will receive much less than they've already earned (not to mention what they expect to accrue in the future). From what I've seen, no other workgroup's pension benefits are large enough to receive the PBGC haircut, but the pilots would lose huge. They know it, and that's why the AA Defined Pension isn't going anywhere. Pilots at UA, US and DL all saw their pensions whacked (including already retired pilots). There's no way the AA pilots want some of that.

 

[Skymess]

Who needs travel passes if you can actually afford to buy a ticket?

You have no idea how much I actually travel. Buying tickets wouldn't be a viable, or justifiable, expense if I had a different job.

 

[Duke787]

Well, 1) I get "travel privileges" with my part-time government employer (ANG), they're free but they're far from first-class
2) Since I actually have far better pay now (look at what your medical/dental benefits cost ya -- mine are company-paid) I can afford to buy any air/rail/ship travel I want to do -- and it sure won't be stand-by!

I understand some like to travel more than I do (never used my AA travel privileges, last trip I took was on TWA) but that's about the only perk AA employees have that I don't, and I think what I have sure makes up for that.

Where do you work? and what do you do?

 

[The Goose]

About the bolded portion - you're correct, except for the really big dogs at your airline - the guys with the funny hats who fly the planes. If the pension is terminated and turned over to the PBGC, the pilots will receive much less than they've already earned (not to mention what they expect to accrue in the future). ... snip

... all that much more reason to convert this "wonderful" pension to a 401k "PlAAn" via a buyout and remove the ammunition from the fire ...

I really don't mean to be cold, but the bottom line is all have had their noses rubbed in the fact we have had a very unethical and self centered group "leading" the company for quite some time now. It's not like there wasn't ample opportunity to see the present events coming like a runaway train.

As far as the executives are concerned (which you didn't address), they can go pound sand where the sun doesn't shine.