Twu's Only Hope

[aircraft_artificer]

Twuer -
Answers -
You and many others know that AMFA has been in existence for many years, as have the industrial unions and their concepts. I see no need to go into that matter as it proves no realistic point or approach.
Many of the airlines laid people off after the 9/11 tragedy. The fact is the only one to attempt to get these people back was AMFA. They knew the "Force Majure" arbitration was a long shot but took it anyway, yes and did lose. Arbitration is a very poor attempt at imitating the legal system, to many possibilities for opinions and corruption(oops did I say that out loud). The other facts are that the lay-offs at NWA were all predicated with a possibility of moving as they could not be laid off if they took the bid. The lay offs at UAL all happened before AMFA was certified as the CBU. Since that there have not been any mech lay offs, in fact the opposite is true. The lay offs at Mesaba were successfully argued and those people are due their jobs and back pay at least for the moment(the company has appealed the decision, gee that is a surprise). How many at AA were laid off and what has the TWU done to get their jobs back?
Starting pay is another issue they have addressed in the past and will address in the future. It is in the contract at ACA that it is negotiable by the prospective employee. When asked about this at UAL the company said it was up to the union to set starting pay, when the IAM was asked they said it was up to the company.(???) Is that available at AA?
AMFA has also taken a strong position against outsourcing both at the company and governmental level on both the job and safety fronts. Remember the TWU "mother" organization the AFL/CIO took a position of support for outsourcing. When UAL wanted to send work overseas the company was told it would be up to the membership and the company rescinded their offer. There is presently a fight developing at NWA over cleaners in Seattle, the new spin by the company "They want to save money" (good luck in court on that one). Refer back to the previous paragraph regarding the Mesaba issue and the lay offs created by outsourcing.
On the issue of safety what is the TWU doing for the whistleblowers?AMFA recently sent a letter to both Marion Blakey and Norman Mineta regarding this. They did in fact save a mechanics job at UAL when the IAM was in place long "BEFORE" they represented mechanics there. There are no less than three whistleblower cases on record in the JFK area. What did the TWU do to support these people?
Retirees at UAL are being represented after a fight that AMFA had to win regarding the representation issue. Has the TWU taken a stance on the retirees from TWA? AMFA also attempted to win back the R&D at UAL and yes the arbitrator ruled against them(refer back to the Force Majure regarding arbitrations) based upon the thinly veiled language that the IAM put into place when they renegotiated the contract during the BK process. This language was hotly disputed by the mechanics but the changes barely managed to pass the vote. The IAM agreed to closing the OAK and IMC while stating they were fighting it.
Another issue is contract negotiations. These are all held in secret at the industrial unions but AMFA keeps them open to the members as well as posts progress reports in a timely fashion with the details of what was agreed to. This is unlike the posts that the UAL mechs got stating "We met with the company and plan to meet next week." What updates do the membership at AA get?
AMFA has also been a strong supporter of the the movement to set aside a day for the remberance of Charles Taylor and to get a bust of him made. What position has the TWU taken regarding anything to honor and support the memory of him?
That is a mere sampling of what AMFA has done and is doing. As AMFA grows their voice for the mechanics and related gets louder. Have they had failures? Yes. Will they continue to have failures? Yes. Will they continue the fight for the mechanics and related? Yes. Will they win more respect for the craft and class? Yes. They already blew the industry's mind when they won the PEB, the IAM made a lackluster attempt to do the same. Do they support the issues that the craft and class feel are important even though they know they may lose? Yes.
The one thing that is very different, that I would ask that you consider, is that when AMFA represents you "They" is actually "You and your peers" instead of "They" being an international that may or may not respect your collective groups desires depending upon what "They" feel is important. Maybe if you took the time away from this board and the TWU offices and looked deeply into the issues surrounding the mechanic and related craft and class objectively, especially if you hold and A&P cert.(I have not seen if you do or not) you might actually understand and possibly agree why there is such a movement for change. The information is there you have to take time to read it, comprehend it, and objectively review it before trying form and defend an opinion and position. This was not true in many of the cases of the IAM wannabes at UAL.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob. . .
When we go to AMFA, an organization that still retains the youthful energy and aspirations that fuel hope and can inspire members, we should learn from the failure of the structure we have left behind and insure that we never make the same mistakes there.


And how long has amfa been in existance Bob??? How many members have they lost in the past couple of years Bob?? What are they doing to "protect the profession" Bob?? You guys get on here and preach about how wonderful amfa is and how we have to replace the TWU with amfa but you have given NO solid proof, EVER that amfa will be the better union. Your main sell is "we can vote out our leaders". That's it!! Their contract language is very poor, their outsourcing is out the roof and layoffs out-number the TWU's by thousands, with more unfortunate layoffs in the very near future for amfa represented carriers it appears. Why is that??? You preach and preach and preach but your sermon has no content, no message. The subject comes up once and a while about how the amfa carriers have no other card drives going on and that they are happy with amfa. Of course they are. . .they have a job!! But my goodness, look at all of those who don't, who were represented by amfa.  Delle thinks BK is a better option then concessions. . .which is absolutley assinine. More of his members get hurt under BK, we have seen that!! But who cares right, as long as some of us are still here? You guys make me sick with all of your better than thou attitudes. Amfa gives empty promises and then cannot deliver. That, there is proof of!!

Hey Bob, why don't you in all of your great wisdom, give us a scenario if you will, a hypothetical situation, and tell us what you think will happen at AA if amfa ever gets in. What will they accomplish, how will they protect the profession? How will they unite the members? What will they do for me?? And remember. . .we already know that we can vote out Delle. Give us some inspiration Bob. Oh, and you may take past amfa accomplishments into consideration but you must take into account their failures as well. Why afma at AA?? This should just be about amfa (not the TWU) . . . sell me (and whomever else may be listening)!!!

Any bets on whether he'll do it?????? :huh:



Anyone else can submit a story as well.
This should be good. . .

Here it is again. . .

And how long has amfa been in existance Bob??? How many members have they lost in the past couple of years Bob?? What are they doing to "protect the profession" Bob?? You guys get on here and preach about how wonderful amfa is and how we have to replace the TWU with amfa but you have given NO solid proof, EVER that amfa will be the better union. Your main sell is "we can vote out our leaders". That's it!! Their contract language is very poor, their outsourcing is out the roof and layoffs out-number the TWU's by thousands, with more unfortunate layoffs in the very near future for amfa represented carriers it appears. Why is that??? You preach and preach and preach but your sermon has no content, no message. The subject comes up once and a while about how the amfa carriers have no other card drives going on and that they are happy with amfa. Of course they are. . .they have a job!! But my goodness, look at all of those who don't, who were represented by amfa. Delle thinks BK is a better option then concessions. . .which is absolutley assinine. More of his members get hurt under BK, we have seen that!! But who cares right, as long as some of us are still here? You guys make me sick with all of your better than thou attitudes. Amfa gives empty promises and then cannot deliver. That, there is proof of!!

Hey Bob, why don't you in all of your great wisdom, give us a scenario if you will, a hypothetical situation, and tell us what you think will happen at AA if amfa ever gets in. What will they accomplish, how will they protect the profession? How will they unite the members? What will they do for me?? And remember. . .we already know that we can vote out Delle. Give us some inspiration Bob. Oh, and you may take past amfa accomplishments into consideration but you must take into account their failures as well. Why afma at AA?? This should just be about amfa (not the TWU) . . . sell me (and whomever else may be listening)!!![/color]

And for you Raptor, I haven't received an answer to these so how can I not like the answers!!

HOW WILL AMFA PROTECT THE PROFESSION?????

It's not that hard of a question. I don't know why more haven't answered. All I get back is more questions.

My, my, you get very impatient when YOUR questions are not addressed. Its not suprising that since you do not know the difference between right and wrong that you dont know the Golden Rule either. By the way I answered the question however J7915 asked it first.

Posted on: Apr 7 2004, 02:15 AM

Replies: 55
Views: 881 QUOTE (j7915 @ Apr 6 2004, 07:16 PM)





Bob, how many would be on the streeet right now without the concessions?

You are dodging. The question is how many jobs did giving away a week of vacation save? This was clearly a concession that was meant to enable the company to decrease headcount without decreasing production.

It is easy to complain and to try to make others answers to "what-if" questions, when you can't seem to, OR ARE UNWILLING, TO satisfactorily address the fact that UAL, NWA just about eliminated overhaul, Alaskan realigned, with the expectation that they could cut headcount, and SWA is almost all line maintenance.

Different companies have different structures. UAL has always cut deep in response to an economic downturn. I remember back in 1981, we had guys come over to Capitol Air from UAL that were laid off with 25 years seniority. They all went back. I know, "this time is different", thats what they said in 81, 92 and now. SWA always contracted out most of their overhaul. However they have also indicated a desire to bring more work in house as their fleet gets larger and the economies of scale kick in.

If you want to see what an all one skill group can do look at the laws and regulations that govern the pilots, F/As and dispatchers. Amts are far from having that regulated protection, and they won't get it under today's business environment.

Yes it just goes to show that the unions that mechanics have had couldnt be bothered lobbying for regulations that would benifit mechanics like the pilots and Flight attendants have. They just take our money and do nothing to enhance the value of our tickets. Now that AMFA is getting big enough they will have more resources.

I have a what-if question for you: what will AMFA do about the outsourcing, and the legal structure of amts? You want support, come up with proposals. Don't be bashful, you will be given the credit for the winning idea.

In a word-SCOPE. Are you ready to show the same courtesy and answer my questions?

 

[aircraft_artificer]

No reply ???

Hmmmmm

B)

 

[twuer]

No reply ???

Hmmmmm

B)

Sorry, I have been busy defending my military service against a few amfa wannabes. They stepped over the line!!

I appreciate your response and thoroughness of your answer. It seems getting a response like that one is like pulling teeth around here!!

I could take it apart piece by piece, the stuff about the outsourcing, whistleblowers the retirees etc. but I have to tell you that I am getting tired of arguing about the same old stuff. We believe 2 different things and that's just the way it is. If you would like to spar regarding these issues you have brought up then I will certainly address these with you. At this particular moment I don't have time to respond accordingly but I wanted to get back wiht you on it.

My stance is that I still do not think that there will even be a vote. Maybe by chance of a miracle I will eat those words but I just don't think the vote will happen.

Let me know if you would like me to "critique" your response a_a! I will oblige!

 

[aircraft_artificer]

Twuer -
I would really like to see a critique. I would also appreciate the answers to the questions I posed within what I wrote. If you could be so kind as to include just exactly what the TWU has done recently to enhance the status of the aviation maintenance technician.

Though we may agree to disagree I do not wish a sparring match but rather a discussion on the both the positive and negative aspects of each type of representation. You at least try to show a modicum of intelligence in most of what you post, unlike CIO which usually has all the apperaence of a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Personally I always leave my options and opinion open thus allowing me to learn and try to make a better person of myself. Since I cannot get any more qualifications in aviation(I have them all) due to the structure of the US aviation community I might as well work on that; and of course work on changing what the NMB and FAA have so royally screwed up.

 

[proAMFA]

Twuer,

I'm confused-are you for democracy (the vote) or not?

 

[Stop the Bus..I Want Off!!]

The only thing that would have saved the twu is a snap-back. January of 2009 is a long time to wait to start our years of negotiating to get back what the twu gave away. The majority of the membership will never trust the twu again. If the twu somehow is spared by not having a vote, they will surely fall with the next AMFA drive!! It's never been IF, but WHEN!! When the company starts making the big bucks again we'll still be under concessions. :down: :down:

Keep the Faith.......VOTE AMFA!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Decision 2004]

NO VOTE - NO PEACE

 

[local 12 proud]

just as 2004 states no vote, no peace. we will never again be united under the twu banner, its like being married to a cheating spouse whom you have caught being unfaithful on more than one occassion, you may through lots of counseling and forgiveness learn to trust after the first indiscretion, but if they cheat again, and again you lose all trust a feelings for that person and marriage and no matter what LIES they tell you the TRUST IS GONE! the twu can never save face with the majority, she has crawled into bed with the company too many times! :down:

 

[Checking it Out]

just as 2004 states no vote, no peace. we will never again be united under the twu banner, its like being married to a cheating spouse whom you have caught being unfaithful on more than one occassion, you may through lots of counseling and forgiveness learn to trust after the first indiscretion, but if they cheat again, and again you lose all trust a feelings for that person and marriage and no matter what LIES they tell you the TRUST IS GONE! the twu can never save face with the majority, she has crawled into bed with the company too many times! :down:

This looks like Amfa you are talking about! The difference is Amfa has done nothing in the Industry except destroy it!

You talk about the distrust. You know if you would direct your efforts in a positive light you would not be using the old saying companies use? Divide and Conquer tactics! They are working well at NWA!

By the last count Amfa has really showed the unity! Give us all a break and due a reality check!

The TWU has done more to protect the long-term gainful employment at AA that Amfa can only dream about!

I also see, Amfa not only rides on the skirt tails at United, they are now riding on the coattails of the AFL-CIO at NWA! Twist as you will, the truth will prevail!

I believe the majority at AA have spoken by not signing an Amfa card!

 

[Decision 2004]

What is the current TWU card count at NWA, SWA, Alaska, Horizon, ACA, ATA, United, and Mesaba?

ZERO?

Your only hope is to prevent a VOTE.

NO - VOTE
NO - PEACE

 

[Checking it Out]

Dave when due you expect amfa to allow layoffs to the point that the TWU will represent more members at AA than amfa does at 8 airlines!

Are you aware NWA is laying off additional Amfa building cleaners and they are in talks with outsourcing overnight maintenance at the line stations?

Do you really want an organization like Amfa? That does little to protect your job?

Take off your blinders and open your eyes! You will see the TWU is the best choice! The truth will prevail!

 

[local 12 proud]

yea cio, lets take more concessions to save building cleaners what part of CRAFT UNIONISM do you not grasp? i hate to see any man or woman lose thier job but it is the way in the airline industry. i was furloughed in 93 and it sucked sure, but i moved on and waited for the recall in 95 but i did'nt come back to reduced wages and bennies, NO I PICKED UP WHERE I LEFT OFF!!!! we can't continue to lower our standard in order to save a few, i know it goes against the grain of your philosophy "A LOAF OF BREAD COST THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY" rethoric, but im sorry i did'nt invest two years of school, thousands of dollars, working full time making peanuts, just so i could help carry a building cleaner's wages commesurate to mine......CIO YOU GET WHAT YOU PUT INTO LIFE, LET THE WELFARE RECEIPEIANTS CLEAN OUR TOILETS!

 

[local 12 proud]

Dave when due you expect amfa to allow layoffs to the point that the TWU will represent more members at AA than amfa does at 8 airlines!

Are you aware NWA is laying off additional Amfa building cleaners and they are in talks with outsourcing overnight maintenance at the line stations?

Do you really want an organization like Amfa? That does little to protect your job?

Take off your blinders and open your eyes! You will see the TWU is the best choice! The truth will prevail!

are you aware that AA is laying off stores people, wheres the out cry from you on that cio? and the almighty bus shrine is allowing it to happen after the massive concessions we gave back. at least the nwa AMFA represented still have full pay and bennies. cio get over it dude, your union is the worst there is and will soon lose to AMFA, the twu is going to be tossed just like the iam was and theres not a damn thing you can do to stop it!

 

[proAMFA]

I believe the majority at AA have spoken by not signing an Amfa card!

CIO,

You are correct that the majority has spoken, however, the majority HAVE signed election cards. You are aware of it or you wouldn't be on this board right now.