TWU562/Owens supports Jim Little!

[Bob Owens]

To answer your question;

In the eyes of many, the "good guys" will be those who hold office that can make "restore and more" a reality, and not just a tag line.

You, Ken and Bob spent a lot of time preaching that anything less was unacceptable. Now you gotta put out.

Not saying its fair, just the way it is.

Thats still my position, but I'm a minority on the committee. You wont see me supporting whats on the table now.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

:down: I`m sure they agreed to sell us AMT`S out once again. As long as the twu get their pockets lined the membership does not matter. In all likelyhood the biggest thing they had to agree on was what show to go to. Why a convention in las vegas boys? Why not dfw,tul,mci,nyc or sfo. Oh yeah not as much "FUN" in those places.... :angry:

exactly, We objected the first we heard of it being in vegas. we suggested we have it in Tulsa and we meant it!

 

[Bob Owens]

exactly, We objected the first we heard of it being in vegas. we suggested we have it in Tulsa and we meant it!

Well my guess is because the TWU is trying to organize the Dealers.

Personally I dont understand why the Dealers are in a Transportation Union instead a Hotel Workers Union because most Casinos are a part of Hotels. Either the SEIU or HERE would seem to be a more logical choice if adhering to industrial unionism. I dont understand the link with Transport that allows us to organize under our Constitution. To me the fact that we are going after the Dealers indicates that we are practicing Business Unionism instead of Industrial Unionism. Sure those people could use representation (and they can supply more dues) but how can their affiliation with Transport workers specifically (vs other Hotel workers) stregnthen their bargaining position and how can they stregnthen ours? Wouldnt getting Delta, AirTran, JetBlue or even TIMCO organized help us more than getting the Dealers organized? Wouldnt the dealers be in a better bargaining position if everyone at the Hotel was in the same union, from the maids, reservations agents and the facility maintenance people instead of with airline and mass transit workers? I feel we should concentrate on the Transport industry and not diversify into other industries.

 

[TWU informer]

Just another example of how things change once elected and oath of allegiance taken to the TWU.

Not to long ago Bob Owens would preach against anyone in the transport industry even thinking about going TWU.

Now he thinks it would be helpful if "Delta, AirTran, JetBlue or even TIMCO" would join the most docile union on the planet.

My opinion still stands, these folks would be better off non-union than going TWU.

 

[Rogallo]

Pitiful, ain't it?

 

[TWU informer]

Pitiful, ain't it?

Yup, there is a big difference between claiming you are working within the TWU because the Tulsa fools left you no option versus advocating other non-union AMT's also join the TWU.

Over the top from my chair, but I am one of those Tulsa fools without common sense and I am the enemy for typing negative comments.

But seriously, after thinking about it a little more, there would be one benefit, the TWU would have those other airline AMT's leading the industry and the profession down the tubes for a change and that would give us all someone else to blame. Just what we need :blink:

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Just another example of how things change once elected and oath of allegiance taken to the TWU.

Not to long ago Bob Owens would preach against anyone in the transport industry even thinking about going TWU.

Now he thinks it would be helpful if "Delta, AirTran, JetBlue or even TIMCO" would join the most docile union on the planet.

My opinion still stands, these folks would be better off non-union than going TWU.

It makes sense that ALL AMTs belong to one union. You disagree?

 

[TWU informer]

It makes sense that ALL AMTs belong to one union. You disagree?

Sure that sounds like a great idea.

Problem is the TWU isn't a union it's a company owned dues collection agency. You disagree?

 

[Bob Owens]

Just another example of how things change once elected and oath of allegiance taken to the TWU.

Not to long ago Bob Owens would preach against anyone in the transport industry even thinking about going TWU.

Now he thinks it would be helpful if "Delta, AirTran, JetBlue or even TIMCO" would join the most docile union on the planet.

My opinion still stands, these folks would be better off non-union than going TWU.

Thats not quite what I said. I was stating that I didnt see where organizing outside of Transportation made sense when there are a lot of people in this industry that arent organized. Delta and Airtran both make more than us so there is zero chance that those mechanics would pick the TWU, however the IBT would probably be successful because of the pay rates and benifits they achieveed at UPS, SWA(before they were decertified) and even Continental.

Seems to me that you are just looking for an arguement.

 

[DallasConehead]

I for one applaud you guys that are trying to change things from within. Change from within began with the membership getting their own locals and representatives. It has been good in the sense that those that represent us on a daily basis with the company are those we can elect or toss out. In effect our representation comes from within vs without as was the case with mostly FSC locals with a minority of mechanics, and this has been a good thing.

But, as far as the "big picture" goes, nothing has changed. The concessionary contracts keep coming with no raise since 01. The boys that make the most noise get sucked up into the INT where they get the big bucks. Pretty soon they forget where they came from and accept that they have made it to the "pay grade" they were looking for. They see the "big picture", while the rest of us figure out how to budget our family finances and all that entails with the reduced pay and increased costs everywhere else.

You guys that try to change things, I'm sorry to say but you will fail. 10 years from now we will still be looking into the chasm of a screwed up company and we'll be working under some other concessionary agreement. It has always been this way and it will always be. But keep on trying, what can it hurt. You will either be tossed by your membership, get sucked up into the INT or continue in your position for eternity trying to change things.

 

[TWU informer]

One other option would be to form an independent union like the F/A and Pilots did on AA property and make another attempt to leave this POS union once and for all.

 

[enough already]

One other option would be to form an independent union like the F/A and Pilots did on AA property and make another attempt to leave this POS union once and for all.

Must......keep.....banging.....head......on........wall....... :blink:

 

[Bob Owens]

I for one applaud .

You guys that try to change things, I'm sorry to say but you will fail. 10 years from now we will still be looking into the chasm of a screwed up company and we'll be working under some other concessionary agreement. It has always been this way and it will always be. But keep on trying, what can it hurt. You will either be tossed by your membership, get sucked up into the INT or continue in your position for eternity trying to change things.

There's another option you left out, "get tossed by the International".

You left out the fact that all the M&E guys who went into the International were in favor of the June Concessionary Proposal.

Like you said, it cant hurt to try. And thats what I intend to do. The worst that can happen is I fail and the status quo remains or gets even worse, the best that can happen is I succeed and things get better. I'd rather invest in hope than just settle for despair.

When I look back at 01 I think that we were doing OK, in 98 or 99 most would have said that what we got in 01 would never happen, but it did, no doubt its because we let another union and their mechanics set the standard. Back then most said we would never get the seperate Locals, once again we did, even if it wasnt done correctly. Change is not only possible, its inevitable, the question is do we steer it in the right direction or just let go and see where we end up?

As far as the current negotiations maybe we should do the same thing we did in 2001, let someone else set the standard, this time let Continental set the standard, (SWA and UPS already did but for some reason we are not supposed to look behind that curtain) they are already $10k ahead of us and they are in negotiations, UAL comes up in December. We waited this long why undercut the profession before we all even get to the table? One thing is for certain, if we take the deal that was offered in June we will be at the bottom of the industry before we see another contract. Nearly every carrier that went bankrupt will be paying their workers more, giving more holidays and more vacation and better sick time as well. Instead of keeping pace with the companies that havent gone BK like SWA, Jet Blue and UPS we will be behind the ones that went BK. Our payback for saving the stockholders from losing their investment will be the worst pay and benifits in the industry, sure we still have the promise of our underfunded pension but as we can see with the "lifetime passes and the retiree medical" AA doesnt hesitate to break their promises.

I still maintain that whatever the plan was we screwed ourselves in June because if we go to binding arbitration thats the best we can get, so we eliminated another option. We now have to at least threaten to strike in order to get something decent. Like I said hopefully the IBT will come through and get something decent at Continental, I know its a chicken-s#!+ cowardly strategy but I dont see us as a whole taking a hard line unless somebody else does it first.

 

[DallasConehead]

Change is not only possible, its inevitable, the question is do we steer it in the right direction or just let go and see where we end up?


I still maintain that whatever the plan was we screwed ourselves in June because if we go to binding arbitration thats the best we can get, so we eliminated another option.

Change is always possible Bob, but certainly not inevitable. I for one wouldn't want to give false hope to your readers.

The union has been undergoing change for the last 10 years, all that I’ve seen from all the players in the INT is virtually the same as it has always been with regards to the membership. Ask anyone of those guys to get something done that might be a little gray and nothing happens, they don't want to stick their necks out, possibly lose their cushy position. They all continue to be docile with regards to contract negotiations with AA, always looking out for the health of the company, the belief being that looking out for the health of the company is the same as looking out for the health of the membership. Meanwhile, the membership stays employed but under continually worsening conditions.

Isn't it true that in under RLA in order for us to go to "binding arbitration" (which all arbitration is), the mediator proffers this prior to the cooling off period and it is only on those articles that are open and ONLY if both sides agree?

 

[MTheory]

I still maintain that whatever the plan was we screwed ourselves in June because if we go to binding arbitration thats the best we can get, so we eliminated another option. We now have to at least threaten to strike in order to get something decent. Like I said hopefully the IBT will come through and get something decent at Continental, I know its a chicken-s#!+ cowardly strategy but I dont see us as a whole taking a hard line unless somebody else does it first.

http://www.nmb.gov/publicinfo/collbarg2.pdf

Check the link to see how the collective bargaining process works.

Also, in todays ecomomic climate the "threat of a strike" is no threat at all. Better off negotiating on your own merits. Perhaps get back with the negotiating committee and produce a better offer?

I dont think that waiting another year and hope to ride on the IBT coatails will do us much good either.