TWU562/Owens supports Jim Little!

[TWU informer]

We now have four AMT Presidents on the Board which is a good thing.

Chicken Feed Pacifier

We are our own worst enemy having beliefs like that.

The number of AMT Presidents would only matter if the union were democratic to begin with.
Since it is not, the number of AMT Presidents matter not one iota.

My how receiveing an extra paycheck from the TWU changes ones views.

So you got elected, get extra pay, and the TWU bought a few Bronze Charley Taylor heads. Still the same POS union from my perspective.

 

[Rogallo]

Chicken Feed Pacifier

We are our own worst enemy having beliefs like that.

The number of AMT Presidents would only matter if the union were democratic to begin with.
Since it is not, the number of AMT Presidents matter not one iota.

My how receiveing an extra paycheck from the TWU changes ones views.

So you got elected, get extra pay, and the TWU bought a few Bronze Charley Taylor heads. Still the same POS union from my perspective.

Ditto

 

[TWU informer]

Well you have the right to feel that way. I stand by what I've already said, I feel that we all came away from this with a better understanding of how the union works so we now have 6 more people with more of a background that could make them a more effective officer.

How does having an understanding that a union is a top down dictatorship that will never change from wtihin make anyone a more effective officer? Not a waste by you personally Bob, or even only your Local, across the board huge waste of time and membership dues. 514 sent a bus load no doubt. I saw the video of Jenny complaining about how the men and women of service are treated, Whoopy, she should have been placed before Congress for such a statement. This dictatoship treats every member like trash not just those in uniform.

Attending a farce of a party on the members dime that results in no change to a more democratic union helps no officer, member, or bystander of the TWU be more effective.

Unless your talking about selling out the membership to gain your own lifetime appointment to be a consumer of the kool-aid in the holy grail, only to strike back by unexpectantly within the organization from the supreme authority position, then your effectiveness is meaningless. Either way the non elected, non appointment, non brainwashed dues payer is still screwed by this organization in the end.

None of that is going to happen anyway. You are nothing more than a paid patsy that was once the feared enemy of the dictator which has been wisely brought in closer to the chest of the problem. Now apparently blinded by the cult leader.

 

[iluvaa]

Hmm it does look that way Bob but we dont blame you, your not the first and you wont be the last. Many good men went in and many overpaid international officers come out. Heck birdchit went for a double dip I think he is good enough for a third. Dave stop fighting the system get on the inside and you will be rich also you have been going at this the wrong way. Screw change go get paid you have earned your dues. Run for pres you will win then Jimmy will offer you a cush job for big cash to play along do that for your last ten years and retire in style. Its not worth the fight, cant beat um join um.
P.S. If you run I will work hard to help you get elected, then you can get me off the box and I can start working toward the big payday down the road. See this can work for everyone.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Chicken Feed Pacifier

We are our own worst enemy having beliefs like that.

The number of AMT Presidents would only matter if the union were democratic to begin with.
Since it is not, the number of AMT Presidents matter not one iota.

My how receiveing an extra paycheck from the TWU changes ones views.

So you got elected, get extra pay, and the TWU bought a few Bronze Charley Taylor heads. Still the same POS union from my perspective.

Do not blind yourself with the misconception that I am a kool-aid drinker.

You might very well be right about the number of AMT presidents not mattering one iota. But would we rather have none or 4. We would have had five if democracy was alive.

Worst enemies? Sitting at a key board typing negative comments while not acting to reverse the slide our craft is in would be the enemy.

I take your comment about receiving an extra paycheck from the twu and it changing my beliefs as a crystal clear indication that you are so out of touch from reality you should seek professional help. The twu bought a few Taylor busts. Yes. So? I never received a check. The artist was paid directly. Next time you accuse me of something that tarnishes my character you might wish to rethink your assumptions.

Worst enemies? Yup, I'm typing to one right now.

 

[TWU informer]

Do not blind yourself with the misconception that I am a kool-aid drinker.

You might very well be right about the number of AMT presidents not mattering one iota. But would we rather have none or 4. We would have had five if democracy was alive.

Worst enemies? Sitting at a key board typing negative comments while not acting to reverse the slide our craft is in would be the enemy.

I take your comment about receiving an extra paycheck from the twu and it changing my beliefs as a crystal clear indication that you are so out of touch from reality you should seek professional help. The twu bought a few Taylor busts. Yes. So? I never received a check. The artist was paid directly. Next time you accuse me of something that tarnishes my character you might wish to rethink your assumptions.

Worst enemies? Yup, I'm typing to one right now.

A little Defensive and Sensitive now are'nt we Ken. Just like others I know that have sworn allegience under oath to the TWU. Dude, I am not one that raised my hand and took that oath you are. I wasn't accusing you of taking money from any artists. I was accusing you of receiving a paycheck from the TWU for being an elected officer and without question your tone and postings on this site have changed since then. As Delle always says..."The proof is in the pudding" Can you still remember Delle and those days?

So now we are Worst Enemies... OK then Ken has spoken. I always knew once you guys got everything you needed from me, the truth would be exposed. Sure wasn't that flavor when you needed someone to sue the company and get your cards signed. Another verification the TWU ways are rubbimg off on you. Think about it Ken, did the TWU view you as an enemy too back when you were posting your negative comments about this union? What has really changed since then? Or should I ask WHO has changed since then? I am still here typing my negative comments as I always have regarding the TWU policies and destructive ways. You on the hand now do what in that arena? Declare me your worst enemy for doing that I have done for years now..... Wow. Should I now refer to you as "Brother" also?

So let it be written, So it be done. Thanks for the notification,

Good luck with that reversing the slide of our craft from within the TWU! I have heard that Kool-Aid changes people and makes them think mis-guided beliefs. Verification I guess. Maybe you haven't drank any as you claim, but you have damn sure been to close to the alter and sniffed little or you are beiing influenced by someone who does drink regularly. Just go back yourself and read your postings from the past and compare to those of today. Then compare my postings of the past to those of today. Have I really changed Ken? Or you? The only real difference I see is now you defend this wortless POS Union instead of speaking the truth about it as you did in the past. Why is that?

I think it is human nature that once you become an internal part of something that you stand and defend it. I just never thought I would hear or read you defending the TWU as an option to reverse the slide of our craft. Again...Wow and just more pudding fodder.

 

[Rogallo]

 

[Bob Owens]

The determination of who represents our class and craft is in the hands of Tulsa, always has been.

TWU Informer, Tulsa is your house, not ours. Tulsa also determines the pay rates and conditions we all work under and for decades we have suffered because of that. So as you sit high and mighty and full of Judgement and scorn over the fact that we are doing what we can to stave off personal bankruptcy by trying to get our members a better contract, while you no doubt live very comfortably, you may want to pause for just a moment and consider the fact that we do not all enjoy the material comforts and economic security that you do.

The fact is that you can afford to take a hard line position because at the end of the day you still make good money relative to the costs where you live.

I don't doubt that you feel you have made personal sacrifices for "the cause" but I'm sure that those sacrifices didnt include telling your kids you couldn't send them to college, not making mortgage payments or losing your home. These are the challenges we face. My guess is that you are probably well on your way to having a comfortable retirement as well. So yea, my members, pay me an extra $20k to fight for them within the framework that exists and none of them have accused me of "selling out" because they know that the extra $20k comes from them at the cost of my not being able to work my other job anymore. I think I've already proven that I'm willing to let the International take that away before I betray their trust.

So if you expect us to just sit back and not take any interest in trying to make what your coworkers dictate that we have work better for us I'd suggest you sell your home, put in your transfer to New York and walk in our shoes before you criticize us because all of your efforts there havent produced any results.

We tried to make improvements at the Convention and Tulsa did not support us, neither did Miami. They voted against all our Resolutions. I dont like the results or the way it was done but the delegates were given a choice and the majority voted against it. Sometimes the members have to step up and hold people accountable. These delegates were not hand picked by the International, they were voted in by your coworkers to represent your coworkers and they voted against resolutions that would make the TWU more democratic. What are you doing to hold your delegates accountable? Is it Democracy and accountability you seek or is it simply the expulsion of the TWU? Sure you can say it was a week long party but the Resolution for Electronic ballotting would have given you the ability to see how every delegate voted on every issue.

Come November the company will have an answer to the June sellout, I feel that the company will likely accept it and your coworkers will overwhelmingly vote it in. For my members it will be the "coup de grace' on our careers, AA can forget about ever being #1 in performance because they will get no effort from us. As our pay heads for the bottom so will AAs performance.

AA will become our 'Second job", it already has for many of us. (We recently had a member quit when he was placed on a Career Decision Day, AA was his second job and he didnt want to be bothered anymore.) We will come to work and give to AA what AA gives to us-the least we can get away with. The longer we go without a raise the easier it is to find a better job even though we are getting older. We've already had several middle aged coworkers resign because they found better things.

For us the threat of AA leaving town is a non-issue because somebody else will simply move into their slots, and if we are at bottom in pay AAs exodus can be seen as job creation by a competitor, many of us have worked at the same airport for several different employers over the years so starting over again is not as terrifying for us as it is for those who have never done it, or we can let AA pay us to move to a lower cost area. Either way it gives us opportunity to make things better.

I loved being an Aircraft mechanic but I love my family more and despite the fact that I'm approaching 50 I may have to try something else if I cant make things better.

Whats your plan to make things better?

 

[TWU informer]

I have been working a second job for a long time now. None of my three sons were able to attend college, and I am currently late on one mortgage payment. I have paid out over $2000.00 in out-of-pocket medical expenses this year and have been sued for $718 in medical cost and a paycheck garnished while fighting United Health Care over charges I diispute of which my union has set on the sidelines and not been involved. So you can take your beliefs and chit can those as more Bob Owens falsehoods and ripley quallified beliefs. And you folks on the line are wrong about Tulsa being your biggest problem. You keep threatening to try something else, I already am. That is my plan to make things better. TRY SOMETHING ELSE and get the hell out.

I just wish I had the $17000.00 and five years of vacation back I used trying to change this POS union and the fools in Tulsa. Had I been more selfish I would be much further along on my plan and/or one of my kids would have went to college.

My mistake was investing in your cause which failed. Now I watch as you guys blame me and others for your demise while defending this POS that caused it to begin with.

All that has changed is now you only blame Tulsa instead of your old methods of blaming Tulsa and the TWU. All they did was bring you in closer to them and shut you up due to your fear of being removed from office again. It has to be the money because I know the glory isnt there.

Let me know when your plans change from "may have to try something else" to I have had enough and "I am currently trying something else".

Let me know when you can blame yourself for procrastinating and not moving own and placing your faith in changing that which you preached for years was unchangeable. You control that trigger Bob not me, and you can pull it anytime you decide to stop using it as a threat and actually take action.

You and Ken are both great people, I am just having a hard time grasping why you are entrenched in changing that which you know cannot be changed. And now show up defending the POS that has been the problem all along.

Ken has been great at working hard to get the craft "recognized". Bronze Bust, AMT day celebrations, even Congressional Recognition. But the fact is "recoginition" is easy to obtain. The company freely gives recognition regularly by handing out employee of the year awards, ATM of the year, they even celebrated AMT day in Tulsa and fed us chicken. We have a fancy bronze bust hid out over there in the administration building. I never have been the type to rely on or seek recognition myself, I show up for work for a paycheck and benefits. Go ask for this type of recognition in negotiations and you will have an agreement next week. Worthless in my household though. Do you think if I went by every morning and rubbed on the nose of the bust of Charley Taylor that my standard of living would be better? I cannot see where that bust or any other bust has done a damn thing to change our demise as a work group. Feel goods are not getting the job done. Are we planning to have a PEB and roll out photos of these bust to prove a point? What good are they really? Thanks alot Ken for your efforts, but let's be honest about the worth of that success.

I will keep working on my plan to get out the door for good, but I will not stop calling out fools who defend this union or think they are going to change what many others before them have failed to change. You guys can look at me as worst enemy if you like, that doesn't lower or raise my standard of living one bit. SO go forth with your oath of allegiance to the TWU, Godspeed and I will see you on the other side.

 

[MTheory]

This thread has generated some interesting conversation. Thats good.

First off, I want to that Bob Owens for visiting the afternoon shift at JFK last week. Your points were well taken. I wish I had more time to ask questions.

I read your membership update (dated 9/21) and thought it was very positive. Its about time that we worked together as part of a process instead of blaming others for our problems. Please see http://twu562.org/ to read the full text.

To be honest, I nearly fell off my chair when you wrote "many of Jim Little's stated goals I agree with". This is not a bad thing. It is a sign that we can overcome our differing viewpoints and possibly achieve something for the membership you represent.

Too many times, people would attack each other, rather than debate the issue.

Although many of Local 562's convention resolutions were not passed, I am happy to see that Owens explained the process in his last post.

Frankly I am amazed that Little didnt put a plexiglass cage around the Local 562 delegates. Many of those who are now in elected Office spent the better part of a decade calling him every name in the book. Now they have to work with him.

Ken MacTiernan - Sarcasticly putting my name on your posts detracts from the points that are being debated. I know what you have done for AMT's. Dont put a blemish on it. Bob and Chuck post on this site of their own volition. I have known both for a long time. Just for the record they are not bad guys. BUT I have disagreed with some of their strategies and positions, and I will debate (and post) those points as I they arise, as I did here.



If anyone needs to know who I am, please send me a personal message.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

This thread has generated some interesting conversation. Thats good.

First off, I want to that Bob Owens for visiting the afternoon shift at JFK last week. Your points were well taken. I wish I had more time to ask questions.

I read your membership update (dated 9/21) and thought it was very positive. Its about time that we worked together as part of a process instead of blaming others for our problems. Please see http://twu562.org/ to read the full text.

To be honest, I nearly fell off my chair when you wrote "many of Jim Little's stated goals I agree with". This is not a bad thing. It is a sign that we can overcome our differing viewpoints and possibly achieve something for the membership you represent.

Too many times, people would attack each other, rather than debate the issue.

Although many of Local 562's convention resolutions were not passed, I am happy to see that Owens explained the process in his last post.

Frankly I am amazed that Little didnt put a plexiglass cage around the Local 562 delegates. Many of those who are now in elected Office spent the better part of a decade calling him every name in the book. Now they have to work with him.

Ken MacTiernan - Sarcasticly putting my name on your posts detracts from the points that are being debated. I know what you have done for AMT's. Dont put a blemish on it. Bob and Chuck post on this site of their own volition. I have known both for a long time. Just for the record they are not bad guys. BUT I have disagreed with some of their strategies and positions, and I will debate (and post) those points as I they arise, as I did here.



If anyone needs to know who I am, please send me a personal message.

Your post below wasn't sarcasm? You accuse the Board of being fiscally irresponsible and crooks of the highest order. But then in the above post you thank Bob for walking the floor and explaining things. Perhaps you should have waited till Bob explained things before posting.

Your comment on my supporting Bob Zimmerman was also taken as sarcasm. Without your expaining it ws an UNPAID Int. Executive Board position you implied it was like an international appointment. Again, before you got the facts.

Difference of opinion is healthy and can be constructive if done in a professional manner. Thanks for your comment about my efforts in promoting our craft. I do not intend to blemish it in any way.

========================


At the very least you and your board are fiscally irresponsible. At the worst crooks of the highest order. You are all probably somwhere in between.

SHAME ON YOU ALL for spending the treasury of Local 562 on a 5 day paid vacation to Las Vegas!!! REMEMBER only THREE of you needed to be there!!!

7 rooms plus 30 days of lost time plus meals. $8400.00 in lost time alone. All just to give Little a very large cheer!

Not once was a motion made, or the membership made aware of this extravagant expense! When were you going to let us know? Or were you?

Just bury it in the financial report and hope nobody sees it? HIPOCRITES!! ALL OF YOU!!

 

[TWU informer]

I read your membership update (dated 9/21) and thought it was very positive. Its about time that we worked together as part of a process instead of blaming others for our problems. Please see http://twu562.org/ to read the full text.

To be honest, I nearly fell off my chair when you wrote "many of Jim Little's stated goals I agree with". This is not a bad thing. It is a sign that we can overcome our differing viewpoints and possibly achieve something for the membership you represent.

Too many times, people would attack each other, rather than debate the issue.

That's funny, Bob just "blamed" Tulsa this morning. Does that not quallify as blaming others for our problems?

Jim Little and the TWU's "stated" postions have been admirable and worker friendly for years. It is the cold hard facts of outcome and performance compared to those "stated" goals that leave folks like me calling this organization out for what it is ---- a Piece of ####.

Stated goals are great, they look really good, people read them and feel hope is alive. Feeling good and Hope are not stopping the erosion of the middle class in general, nor the silde of the AMT profession.

The problem is Jim Little and the TWU place complete reliance on these goals to succeed in the Political Arena. They spend millions of dollars in dues money trying to get those goals accomplsihed via Politics. Until we go back to the days when the workers demanded the change and will take matters to extreme positions to get what they want and need, we will have nothing more than beautifully worded stated goals as in fact we slide backwards. Right now all we have is a dues collection agency playing a game lobbying and the game is "who has the most money to buy influence wins". How the hell they ever figure the workers will win a game of who has the most money for influence succeeds is well beyond my intellect, I must be stupid because I don't get it. We cannot even win at the Local Bargaing Table against those that have the most money, much less declare a victory in the National Battle of Lobbying and Political Money Laundering.

Maybe someday organized labor will shut down the AFL-CIO, COPE's, and State and City Labor Councils and call out the real power (membership manpower in the street) to get things accomplished and changed. My fear is though, that the leaders that would have to make that call are making to much money, are basically rich themselves, and have to much to lose to make a move like that for the good of all.

 

[Bob Owens]

I have been working a second job for a long time now. None of my three sons were able to attend college, and I am currently late on one mortgage payment. I have paid out over $2000.00 in out-of-pocket medical expenses this year and have been sued and a paycheck garnished while fighting United Health Care over chanrges which my union has set on the sidelines and not been involved. And you folks on the line are wrong about Tulsa being your biggest problem. You keep threatening to try something else, I already am.

Well if you look at all the concessionary contracts over the last 20 years you will see that Tulsa voted YES on all of them. My out of pocket expenses for Medical have been around the same, however my taxes and other bills are probably considerably more and my home is likely much smaller.

That is my plan to make things better. TRY SOMETHING ELSE and get the hell out.

It may come to that, but now I'm trying to make things better for all of us. Thats what I committed to do.

I just wish I had the $17000.00 and five years of vacation back I used trying to change this POS union and the fools in Tulsa. Had I been more selfish I would be much further along on my plan and/or one of my kids would have went to college.

Some people are better at stretching money than others, I can only imagine what shape your finances would be if you lived in New York, but then again with your skills you would would probably do very well outside of Aviation, better than most A&Ps.

My mistake was investing in your cause which failed. Now I watch as you guys blame me and others for your demise while defending this POS that caused it to begin with.

Well I've only seen us defending our actions from your attacks.

All that has changed is now you only blame Tulsa instead of your old methods of blaming Tulsa and the TWU. All they did was bring you in closer to them and shut you up due to your fear of being removed from office again. It has to be the money because I know the glory isnt there.

Thats not true, I blame both but the facts are what they are and I have to work to change things from within because thats the only viable option, Tulsa controls both our destiny and the TWU as far as representing our class and craft.

Let me know when your plans change from "may have to try something else" to I have had enough and "I am currently trying something else".

Well I've made a committment to my coworkers to do this for three years.

Let me know when you can blame yourself for procrastinating and not moving own and placing your faith in changing that which you preached for years was unchangeable.

Unchangeable? Perhaps I have said that, I dont recall, but I think my stance has been that the barriers to change are so very high and given other options it would be easier to choose them, but there are no other options an this is the only game in town so I will try to scale these barriers. I went to the field yesterday and several members said they wished they could get a different union but they still supported what I was trying to do.

You and Ken are both great people, I am just having a hard time grasping why you are entrenched in changing that which you know cannot be changed.

Well what are the options?

Ken has been great at working hard to get the craft "recognized". Bronze Bust, AMT day celebrations, even Congressional Recognition. But the fact is "recoginition" is easy to obtain. The company freely gives recognition freely by handing employee of the year awards, ATM of the year, they even celebrated AMT day in Tulsa and fed us chicken. I never have been to rely on or seek recognition myself, I show up for work for a paycheck and benefits. Go ask for this type of recognition in negotiations and you will have an agreement next week. Worthless in my household though.

Its a strategy that costs us little and could help us in the end at raising wages. If the company is claiming we arent worth what we are asking for and we can show that we are then it helps us.

I will keep working on my plan to get out the door for good, but I will not stop calling out fools who defend this union or think they are going to change what many others before them have failed to change. You guys can look at me as worst enemy if you like, that doesn't lower or raise my standard of living one bit. SO go forth with your oath of allegiance to the TWU, Godspeed and I will see you on the other side.

So I guess from your point of view we are all fools, those who tried for 30 years to change unions, those who tried to change from within, and those who will try anything. I dont look at you as an enemy, just someone who has hardened his opinions and narrowed his options. I dont look at Tulsa as the enemy either, just misguided in that they help the real enemy in this struggle-AA. The fact is that the only constant is change, most of it has been bad, Tulsa had it soo good that its taken a long time to get the point of being bad, as deep as you guys are into it, we are that much deeper.

We've decided that we will work with what we have and try and do the best we can. Does that make us Kool-aide drinkers? To me it makes us realists who still cling to hope that we can save the profession.

 

[TWU informer]

As I said before Good Luck in your efforts at your "only option" left. Let's build more bust, and collect more dues for politics, attend more conventions, then we will really have the background it takes to be more effective.

There has to be some stone unturned, some untried method from the past, all one has to do is find it. And since we are all smarter than anybody else around us, we will succeed and not repeat the mistakes of the past.

PS - You stand a better chance at winning the lottery.

 

[enough already]

One of the main things I see that the twu has succeeded in doing is destroying their enemies. They have been able to do the same thing that aa has done among the rank and file membership and that is divide and conquer.

It seems what needs to be done is to realize what is really important to our brotherhood. In my opinion that is Unity. There is nothing that resembles that on this forum or in my workplace. (Tulsa) Almost every post I read anymore is about what somebody has done or sacrificed for the cause of our "Craft". The only "kool-aid" that seems to be ingested here is that of Pride.

How is this post helpful? I don't know, but I just hate to see what we have been reduced to while the company and their pet "union" sit back and laugh at us as they pat each other on the back.

Just my humble opinion...