texasreb
Senior
- Jul 26, 2008
- 378
- 171
TWU vs. AMP Debate Comments
- Thread starter Ralph
- Start date
Well the the railroad division of the TWU did honor an AMFA picket line, because the amfa boys went from DTW to railyard near Toledo Ohio and st up a picket line without notifying anyone (just goes to show how clueless the Association was) which is a normal practice. It took some time to straighten the situation out to get people back to work.
Kev3188
Veteran
On an anecdotal note:
In my station, we told the AMFA AMT's that if they set up their line in front of our Airfreight facility, that none of the ramp would cross it (we all parked there). Most of the unionized truckers said the same thing, especially IBT represented ones. They declined citing a lack of visibility with the public, and instead were relegated first to a far corner of the departure level roadway, and later on to the freeway interchange a couple of miles from the terminal. Neither were "high visibility," IMO.
Would it have changed the outcome? I doubt it, but it would've at least made a small dent.
In my station, we told the AMFA AMT's that if they set up their line in front of our Airfreight facility, that none of the ramp would cross it (we all parked there). Most of the unionized truckers said the same thing, especially IBT represented ones. They declined citing a lack of visibility with the public, and instead were relegated first to a far corner of the departure level roadway, and later on to the freeway interchange a couple of miles from the terminal. Neither were "high visibility," IMO.
Would it have changed the outcome? I doubt it, but it would've at least made a small dent.
T
The Goose
Guest
Along with the history (which, as you point out is not current, Mr. E) lesson, also list the outright failures of the TWU and the more recent attempts to supplement the TWU's dues income by organizing gaming employees that have nothing whatsoever to do with the transportation industry.
Is this deja vu All Over Again? In September 2003, the AMFA Organizing Committee spondored a full day of organizing meetings at the Sheraton (now it is the Radisson)Hotel. At those meetings TWU AA members were told that AMFA never gave concessions, provided full democracy and accountability. In addition they informed those in attendance, that they had negotiated the best outsourcing and job protection in the industry at NWA. At that time AMFA represented close to 20,000 mechanics at NWA, UAL, Horizon, ASA, SWA and etc.
Several TWU supporters in attendance inquired as to why, if AMFA was so skilled at protecting against outsourcing, how did close to 3000 NWA get furloughed when half the heavy checks had been outsourced? The AMFA lead officer said in clear and precise language that those layoffs had been grieved, that AMFA would prevail in arbitration and would win back all those jobs. The TUL chair of the AMFA Organizing committee then said, when winning the arbitration and getting those jobs back he expected to receive signed cards from all of us in attendance.
The prediction did not come to pass. After a series of failed arbitrations a mere 75 of the 3000 furloughed AMTs got their jobs back in the summer of 2004. Furthermore because of the AMFA/NWA contract more jobs were lost because of the ironclad contractual language on outsourcing that was bragged about during the meeting. A year later only @ 4400 active mechanic and related were still employed as compared to @ 9200 a year earlier. When AMFA struck NWA in 2005, the rest of heavy maintenance was outsourced, along with Plant Maintenance and cleaning. Few AMFA members returned to work at NWA, or were given the right to come to work at Delta. After being de-certified at UAL, AMFA rpresents @ 2500 members at 3 carriers.
The AMFA organizers from NWA who spoke that day are not working in our industry to my knowledge, but the Chair of the Tulsa AMFA organizing committee (who is protected by the TWU/AA agreement) is gainfully employed at AA. He is now a spokesman for AMP (Don Rodgers), works at DFW is a member of the AMP steering committe. He was quoted in the Tulsa World on 8/17/2010 that mechanics at the base had returned about half the cards. He also added that, as in 2003, promising if we just sign a card we will have a more democratic union than the TWU and more militant ----one that not gives concessions and will protect our work. However AMP has filed no forms with the Dept of Labor or the IRS, has no contract with any carrier, represents no-one, and has no bank account or resources or working relations with other unions.
AMP has no track record, but it's creators and supporters do. They were almost ALL former AMFA organizers and every prediction and promise made to mechanics about AMFA's performance turned out to be false. As we are all aware or should be all heavy maintenance has been out sourced except AA. AMFA signed on to agreements that outsourced work which did away with good paying jobs.
In 2003, AMFA and it's Tulsa Organizing Committee told us that AMFA supplied the best outsourcing and layoff protection in the industry. In 2010 the overwhelming majority of mechanics AMFA represented in 2003 are no longer working under an AMFA contract. Yet, the same people who told you to trust their judgement and put your faith in AMFA are now telling you to trust them once again, but with a new entity.........AMP........think back to to previous promises made in 2003, how are those working for you?
When you ponder whether to sign a card or not think of this comparison, as a mechanic you have a logbook in front of you or some other maintenance document, someone else did the work you are told, would you sign for that work, most likely not. Know what all the facts are before you trust someone else who might be promising you the moon, but can't deliver on the promises you have heard before.
Kev3188
Veteran
They're not, since I'm neither a TWU member, nor an employee of AA.
That said, you didn't address my statement.
How (or why) would a change in representation preclude community involvement?
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
"I have always supported our agent (TWU)"
WOW! cio supports an undemocratic, unaccountable dues collecting agency that has allowed the in-sourcing of jobs at AA; srp/osm and now the potential sma. I guess he supports the appointment of officers to the international. cio must not like the idea of recalling those who peddle the company's snakeoil.
Observer,
"think back to to previous promises made in 2003, how are those working for you?" I am thinking back to 2003. I am thinking about the LIFE CHANGING concessions I took in the form of 28 1/2% cut in pay and benefits. Did videtich, gless, little or any of the other UNELECTED int. officers take a pay cut? How many, and how much pay raises did these UNELECTED int. officers get while I shared my portion of the "shared sacrifice"?
"As we are all aware or should be all heavy maintenance has been out sourced except AA."
Yes, the twu believes in in-sourcing so the dues continue. Why did the twu allow srp/osm and now peddle the sma title? The twu believes in lowering wages while the company lays off. Great game plan. Informer, your alias is fitting. I'm sure you'd have been a fan of Joseph Goebbels.
WOW! cio supports an undemocratic, unaccountable dues collecting agency that has allowed the in-sourcing of jobs at AA; srp/osm and now the potential sma. I guess he supports the appointment of officers to the international. cio must not like the idea of recalling those who peddle the company's snakeoil.
Observer,
"think back to to previous promises made in 2003, how are those working for you?" I am thinking back to 2003. I am thinking about the LIFE CHANGING concessions I took in the form of 28 1/2% cut in pay and benefits. Did videtich, gless, little or any of the other UNELECTED int. officers take a pay cut? How many, and how much pay raises did these UNELECTED int. officers get while I shared my portion of the "shared sacrifice"?
"As we are all aware or should be all heavy maintenance has been out sourced except AA."
Yes, the twu believes in in-sourcing so the dues continue. Why did the twu allow srp/osm and now peddle the sma title? The twu believes in lowering wages while the company lays off. Great game plan. Informer, your alias is fitting. I'm sure you'd have been a fan of Joseph Goebbels.
High Speed Steel
Veteran
- Feb 14, 2004
- 1,375
- 136
I see you're back to the same "pool of pittance" from where you once ascended....I'm not surprised that you abandoned your post and the members of 565. What is really troublesome for me is that you traveled here to Tulsa and encouraged members to follow your lead as an officer of TWU. Having your little demonstration and making comments to the local media promoting a "NO vote" on this TA. You encouraged members from my Local to follow you and you abandoned them too...
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
Oh, the tears of the fearful.
If you care to step into the realm of reality and rememberance I told the news that those of us from Local 565 drove to Tulsa to show our support for a NO VOTE as AMTs. The banner did not say Local 565 on it anywhere. The banner said nothing about AMP on it anywhere. But you wouldn't know this because you did not come and stand on the corner with those willing to defend our craft. I did wear a Local 565 shirt because as a Local 565 E-Board Member I was saying VOTE NO!
As for your not being surprised I would comment that I'm not surprised at your attempt to make my resignation anything other than what it is.
You see, the twu chanted many years ago "Change from within." I did what I could with the system in place. Even though the system is flawed I did the best I could. AMP wasn't around then but they are now and they are LIGHT YEARS better than the unaccountable system in place at AA. So, just so there would be no conflict of interest I resigned. I stated why and, which should be a surprise to you, not one person looked at my resignation as an "abandonment". As a matter of fact many respect my decision and have been very supportive. So supportive in fact that they have signed AMP cards.
Now return to those who are held unaccountable and unelected and inform them you threw your ball of mud at me and you patiently await your next instructions.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,959
- 9,374
I find it curious that some still find AMFA to be at fault for overhaul outsourcing at UAL. IMC was first downsized in 2000, and both OAK and IMC were planned to be shut down by 2003 as part of the bankruptcy proceeding. IIRC, AMFA was voted in after their bankruptcy filing.
Granted, AMFA allowed outsourcing in their 2001 contract with NWA, but in exchange for the increase to 40% outsourcing, they secured 24% raises for the membership.
I also find it interesting that the TWU supporters are more concerned with AMFA's "failings" than they are with trying to address the core issues which brought about the AMP drive. Sorta like Obama continuing to campaign against Bush, instead of running the country...
Granted, AMFA allowed outsourcing in their 2001 contract with NWA, but in exchange for the increase to 40% outsourcing, they secured 24% raises for the membership.
I also find it interesting that the TWU supporters are more concerned with AMFA's "failings" than they are with trying to address the core issues which brought about the AMP drive. Sorta like Obama continuing to campaign against Bush, instead of running the country...
an exchange for 40% outsourcing, got a 24% raise....................great bargainning on the backs of the unfortunate who lost their jobs............
texasreb
Senior
- Jul 26, 2008
- 378
- 171
The cap was 38% and establiised rules on how to inforce it there was no cap before that and just like the twu they were completely dependent on the companies good will to keep work in house. What seems to be lost on the TWU supporters here is the cap did not allow the outsourcing that occured at NWA, after 9/11 the company used the force majeure clause on 3 different occasions to circumvent the cap, grievances where filed I think one was lost and i do not know the outcome of the other 2 the final straw was the companies offer on the contract before the strike which included outsourcing about 50% of what was left and they elected to strike.
This was a mistake and many of us tried to convince them to stay in mediation or consider chaos instead, by that time you could see that NWA had hatched a plan and they wanted to get rid of all the AMT's. the plan is now complete and anyone can see that it was to merge with Delta, they flied on the same day and Mr Anderson who was CEO of NWA at the time is now CEO of the combined company. much easier to do without the unionized Mechanics.
In conclusion if not for the events of 9/11 things would have most likely turned out very differently not only at NWA but in the rest of the industry the TWU likes to take credit for the fact that they were the union on the property at the only airline that did not file bankruptcy the truth is it was luck.
texasreb
Senior
- Jul 26, 2008
- 378
- 171
I agree. The NWA and Delta plan was in the works for a long time. Anderson and Steenland have plotted this out all along. Anderson was the CEO of NWA years ago. He left Steenland in charge to be the bad guy and later resurfaced at Delta. It was all in the plans to ruin the Unions.
