TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[Flying low]

If you are referring to Dan C., you are correct. His shirt was not a simple AMFA shirt. But a few years before that, there was a huge push at AFW to restrict the wearing of AMFA shirts. Many of us were had charges brought against us and were to be put on trial and if found guilty would be put in bad standing. Most of us went on hand pay dues and there never was a trial. I think we promised not to wear them again and it went away. That ban lasted for no time at all though.

Maybe the TWU can get the shop stewarts to walk around and rip AMFA shirts of of people, just like there supposed to rip AMFA signs off the boards!!!

 

[Mr Red]

Excuse me Dec 2002 and Jan 2006. I entered Jan for 2002 in error. Either way, the 1113e initiated the first round of pay cuts with the 1113e on Jan 6, 2004. It is from that date that the pay cuts started. The point is that UA got slammed and it has taken eight years to finally pass us at AA. The comparison to UA now, eight years after BK and say, "Look how good they are doing," is a ridiculous. If we walked in their shoes back then there would be no AO work here and yes we would now be making eight years later $37/hour for those that stayed on.

Or we could have voted yes on the July 2010 TA and been making for the last two years and still have AO. Not reliving the past just pointing out that the "vote no until something good happens" people aren't that smart. They have a poor track record.

You JUST DON't GET IT DO YOU ! We are done with volutary suicide !

 

[strikeforce]

Last things first:

If the average wage argument has to include the impact of work outsourced to raise the in-house wage rate why does the TWU only include WN, UPS and FDX when discussing the in-house wage rate during outsourcing if they also include UA, DL, CO and US when discussing the pay parity of the AA AMT?

I agree that the wage rate argument has to include the impact of work outsourced: the problem is that outside the TWU Elite; you guys have never bothered to inform us of the degree of the wage disparity for Overhaul.

In fact, we do not know that the total cost of outsourcing is lower than the total cost of insourcing given that the comapny never actually funded their promises under the DBP and that they now propose, to the BK Court that they own their contributions to the TWU Retiree Health Care Trust, and to totally eliminate retiree health care for those already retired and eliminate retiree health coverage for all of those still employed.

We do not know that actual average wage rate for any of the overhaul bases given the number of OSMs' deployed and the fact that overhaul does fully staff all docks, shops and lines 24-7-365 is not competitive with the costs of outsourcing that same work and the rework experienced from the recent experience with the last several 757's outsourced to Greensboro, NC.

This is not a Line v. Overhaul thing: this is an information versus disinformation thing. Sort of like Obama wanting Romney to give up all of his financial records while Obama refuses to give up all of his educational records.

I personally think that having refused the 2010 TA, we only avoided deeper concessions now given that the ask would have had to include those raises.Given that most people spend more when they make more, I could reasonably argue that the degree of financial difficulty would now be far worse for the average TWU M&R Represented Union Member given the ratification of the 2010 TA and that the job of the TWU International Officer would be far easier given that we had already given significant concessions which the Company, under testimony and negotiations, have refused to grant credit in the current BK Negotiations.

I hate to get involved in your argument with Overkill......but your absolutely right, it is an information disservice that the TWU provides to the membership. Why would they accept a comparison average pay to include only UA, DL, US, and not include ALL of the airlines, both cargo and pax. At a minimum, WN should have been included. By accepting less, the TWU sold YOU out! And, that's because Overspeed, Videtich, Little, Gless, and the other goofs don't have to live by the POS agreement. I'm glad I left that decrepid union, and F'd up company. Saving myself the misery, and $700 in dues to a screwed up bunch of scam artists.

 

[NYer]

Excuse me Dec 2002 and Jan 2006. I entered Jan for 2002 in error. Either way, the 1113e initiated the first round of pay cuts with the 1113e on Jan 6, 2004. It is from that date that the pay cuts started. The point is that UA got slammed and it has taken eight years to finally pass us at AA. The comparison to UA now, eight years after BK and say, "Look how good they are doing," is a ridiculous. If we walked in their shoes back then there would be no AO work here and yes we would now be making eight years later $37/hour for those that stayed on.

Or we could have voted yes on the July 2010 TA and been making for the last two years and still have AO. Not reliving the past just pointing out that the "vote no until something good happens" people aren't that smart. They have a poor track record.

How much were the raises in the '08 deal shot down by Luis? Where would we be today under that deal? We said no back then because it wasn't enough. We've been saying no and have been falling further and further behind because of that tactic. It seems we want 30 years of negotiations in one contract. That just doesn't make sense.

 

[BigMac]

(SARCASM) -
I say we vote "YES" and allow AA to pull itself out of bankruptcy with out a merger. Horton and his management team deserve a bonus :

**Horton and his management team stand to receive from $300 million to $600 million if he can make it through bankruptcy court without merging first with a rival like US Airways.**

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/54479986-79/american-bankruptcy-airways-company.html.csp

 

[Mr Red]

(SARCASM) -
I say we vote "YES" and allow AA to pull itself out of bankruptcy with out a merger. Horton and his management team deserve a bonus :

**Horton and his management team stand to receive from $300 million to $600 million if he can make it through bankruptcy court without merging first with a rival like US Airways.**

http://www.sltrib.co...ompany.html.csp

With the help of the TWU !!!

 

[Vortilon]

Yes the SRPs started in 1995. Do you remember that the Company proposal was to outsource that work? The membership was surveyed and they said they wanted job security to be there number one concern. With the combination of an early out package and the SRP classification no work was outsourced. The choice was allow the work to be outsourced or insourced.

You do know that UA, DL, and CO all have SRP/OSM type classifications at that time. They call them Utility, Technician Helper, and Mechanic Helper. In 1995 CO only paid one license for overhaul AMTs as well as having unlicensed AMTs working overhaul. Bash the SRP/OSM program all you want but we weren't the first. It was a response to the market forces.

Again market rate has to include the MRO where the work is outsourced to. AA's OSM rate and benefits are higher than MROs where UA, DL, CO, WN, UPS, FDX, and US outsource the work our OSMs perform.

The average wage rate argument has to include the impact of work outsourced to raise the in-house wage rate.

Funny you bring up the membership survey ED, IIRC that survey was sent out 2 or 3 years prior, when the outlook was MUCH different. That contract was another TWU engineered POS - with the 5 & 5 to get get the votes of the retirement aged guys, and the upgrade of building cleaners and others to the SRP classification - which for many was a large bump in pay. Then, lets not forget the card counting scandal at the TWU for that particular vote. What, you think we forgot about that? The vote passed by a measly 75 votes systemwide give or take, and your TWU scumbags rejected something like 125 no votes out of DFW alone! Then you like to talk about the profit sharing checks - what a joke. SWAs profit sharing checks were about 4 times bigger than ours ever were, and that was when AA was turning huge profits. Nice try...

 

[Overspeed]

Funny you bring up the membership survey ED, IIRC that survey was sent out 2 or 3 years prior, when the outlook was MUCH different. That contract was another TWU engineered POS - with the 5 & 5 to get get the votes of the retirement aged guys, and the upgrade of building cleaners and others to the SRP classification - which for many was a large bump in pay. Then, lets not forget the card counting scandal at the TWU for that particular vote. What, you think we forgot about that? The vote passed by a measly 75 votes systemwide give or take, and your TWU scumbags rejected something like 125 no votes out of DFW alone! Then you like to talk about the profit sharing checks - what a joke. SWAs profit sharing checks were about 4 times bigger than ours ever were, and that was when AA was turning huge profits. Nice try...

The survey was two to three years before the 95 TA? Hardly, we just voted in the extension in 93 that cut the scale to 5 years.

The vote is done by mail and its fixed, its done by computer and its fixed. I guess it is always a conspiracy with you isn't it.

Funny thing about contract negotiations, they involve meeting the needs of just enough people to pass, not please everyone. "Engineered?" No, a negotiating committee must meet the needs of a majority of the membership, not just the DFW membership.

Yes SWA profit sharing checks were nice. They were going through explosive growth at our expense and there's is a first dollar profit plan. Just like what is in the TA that is before us.

 

[NYer]

With the help of the TWU !!!

Which recent mergers have taken place while the airline was still IN bankruptcy?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Yes the SRPs started in 1995. Do you remember that the Company proposal was to outsource that work? The membership was surveyed and they said they wanted job security to be there number one concern. With the combination of an early out package and the SRP classification no work was outsourced. The choice was allow the work to be outsourced or insourced.

You do know that UA, DL, and CO all have SRP/OSM type classifications at that time. They call them Utility, Technician Helper, and Mechanic Helper. In 1995 CO only paid one license for overhaul AMTs as well as having unlicensed AMTs working overhaul. Bash the SRP/OSM program all you want but we weren't the first. It was a response to the market forces.

Again market rate has to include the MRO where the work is outsourced to. AA's OSM rate and benefits are higher than MROs where UA, DL, CO, WN, UPS, FDX, and US outsource the work our OSMs perform.

The average wage rate argument has to include the impact of work outsourced to raise the in-house wage rate.

Your use of UAL Mechanic Helpers as an example of a SRP/OSM type classification is misleading in the extreme.

We have less than 100, and that number hasn't changed much in my entire time at UAL(ie mid 80's) They DO NOT work on aircraft, the majority work in the tool crib and the remainder do cleaning/sandblasting work or GSE servicing checks (thats checks - NOT GSE maintenance)

 

[Realityck]

Funny you bring up the membership survey ED, IIRC that survey was sent out 2 or 3 years prior, when the outlook was MUCH different.

I'm sure you're not surprised, but you don't know what you're talking about - the system survey was sent out sometime in 1994, before the 1995 negotiations started.

That contract was another TWU engineered POS - with the 5 & 5 to get get the votes of the retirement aged guys, and the upgrade of building cleaners and others to the SRP classification - which for many was a large bump in pay.

Another journey into space - the 5+5 was to create AMT vacancies since all laid off Overhaul AMTs had to be recalled before even one SRP could be hired (they got job security when they came back on payroll too goober).

Then, lets not forget the card counting scandal at the TWU for that particular vote. What, you think we forgot about that? The vote passed by a measly 75 votes systemwide give or take, and your TWU scumbags rejected something like 125 no votes out of DFW alone!

Boy are you screwed up - as I recall, the vote was mailed out by each Local, counted by each Local, and verified in writing by each Local. What have you been drinking? The vote passed by 77 votes - and I don't know what stall you got the 125 No vote out of!

Then you like to talk about the profit sharing checks - what a joke. SWAs profit sharing checks were about 4 times bigger than ours ever were, and that was when AA was turning huge profits. Nice try...

It's unfortunate the TWU didn't have a genius like you at the bargaining table. With your obvious negotiating expertise, intuition, and math skills, I'm surprised you haven't left American for some CEO position by now.

 

[Buck]

It would of been nice to have a genius or even a Labor Lawyer or two.....

 

[BigMac]

http://public.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/me/2012/07/20120716_me_13.mp3?orgId=1&topicId=1006&sc=13&f=156826994

 

[Vortilon]

Reality Chump & Overspin sounds like a new sitcom. The extension was 92, the pay raise didn't occur till 93 - so there was that typical TWU engineered half year stall in us realizing any benefits from the deal. I know for a fact, that by the time the 95 contract came up -, that stupid survey was two years stale. By 95, the economy had turned the corner and was booming - peoples opinions had changed on what their priorities were from two years before. That didn't matter to the TWU though. The thought and effort put into manipulating that vote by targeting only certain segments of the membership for any real gain - really showed how messed up this communist POS organization really is. History repeats itself again now with the TWU again picking the winners in the membership at our expense. Using your logic, why not give away the measly 5 holidays we have left at half - time pay - if you have to work. Maybe you could get away with giving some more of our vacation away - really who needs that sixth week right? Lets not forget about the sick time fiasco - you TWU antagonists are priceless. BTW, it was no secret that the grounds for rejecting ballots in 95 was subjective, as it turns out the folks judging the ballots took a little creative license when judging the ballots - especially is they had a NO vote on it. The NO vote ballot rejection wasn't just at DFW, it was system wide. I mentioned DFW earlier because the rejection rate of NO ballots was unusually high; in fact, exceeding the amount that the vote passed by system wide. No funny business there going on there - just move along..right?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

TWU can not be trusted anymore. We pay them to screw us over. Are we that stupid?

Honestly? The answer is yes. (At least in Tulsa) We are extremely stupid for keeping these clowns around. We have taken a beating on every contract they have "Negotiated".