TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[Hopeful]

The T/A with the pilots has them flying anything over 79 seats.

And if the Pilot T/A is voted down and they get abbrogated?

IF

 

[CMH_GSE]

And if the Pilot T/A is voted down and they get abbrogated?

IF

All of my conversations were under the auspices of agreements.

 

[Hopeful]

It seems we are all living under one big IF!

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, where did you see that?
Here is the letter from pg 23:
RE: Operating Aircraft with a Capacity of more than 79 Seats

Dear Robert;

During the recent negotiations that led to the signing of the Agreement between American Airlines, Inc. ("American") and the Transport Workers Union of America, AFL-CIO ("TWU") covering Mechanic and Related employees effective DOS, the parties discussed the APA proposals involving flying aircraft with more than 79 seats.

It is agreed that absent agreement between TWU and the Company to the contrary, all aircraft with greater than 79 seats, if flown by APA and operated by AMR corporation or its subsidiaries, are within the scope of this Agreement.

Please note the underlined text, seems to me it doesn't matter which certificate they are under.

I stand corrected, I was thinking of the July 2 Letter which said "It is further agreed that absent agreement between the TWUand the Company to the contrary, TWU represented employees covered by this agreement will also be responsible for maintenance work on aircraft owned and operated by AMR corporation or its subsidiaries in accordance with the TWU-AA agreement".

I'd requested that they add "or" between "and" & "operated". Instead they cut other language out as well from the letter.I would have rather just have the "or" added to the July2 letter because the new langauge is even weaker. The new language says it falls within the scope of the agreement, not within the scope clause, it doesnt say we work it. Dont think the company would play that game? Tell it to the retirees who they are telling "We said we would provide you retiree medical, we didnt say we would do it for life".

 

[Bob Owens]

It seems we are all living under one big IF!

Thats life.

 

[CMH_GSE]

I stand corrected, I was thinking of the July 2 Letter which said "It is further agreed that absent agreement between the TWUand the Company to the contrary, TWU represented employees covered by this agreement will also be responsible for maintenance work on aircraft owned and operated by AMR corporation or its subsidiaries in accordance with the TWU-AA agreement".

I'd requested that they add "or" between "and" & "operated". Instead they cut other language out as well from the letter.I would have rather just have the "or" added to the July2 letter because the new langauge is even weaker. The new language says it falls within the scope of the agreement, not within the scope clause, it doesnt say we work it. Dont think the company would play that game? Tell it to the retirees who they are telling "We said we would provide you retiree medical, we didnt say we would do it for life".

Here, I agree with you. There is a smidgen of wiggle room and would the company exploit it? History tells us they have and would but it would have to be after this agreement expires. The company has not won any votes by shafting the retirees with the 1114 process. If anything, they are turning some yes votes into no votes.

 

[Hopeful]

Thats life.

Yes it is...
I am willing to see this through till the end..
But the biggest IF i am concerned with is IF the judge abbrogates, can the 6 year duration be imposed...
I know all about the " we continue to negotiate" language...

But what IF the term of duration is imposed as well?

I smell further litigation.

 

[Birdman]

We all thought we had separate negotiations, but did you ever notice the % raise always seems to be the same?

The qestion remains as to how the M&R got to the bottom of the industry with all other TWU groups median or above. One would have to be a dunce to keep proclaiming the "strength in numbers" mantra in the M&R ranks. I don't begrudge the others standing in the industry but wonder when we can expect parity. If TeAAm Overspeed gets their way we will be at the bottom forever.

 

[Hopeful]

DOS. That was comparing what we would get for the next year after DOS to what UAL gets now. Ual starts negotiating in September for a new contract. SWA becomes amendable this August and USAIR has been in mediation for a year. If we accept this we set the standard and screw the profession again, just like in 2003, when out of BK we lowered wages by 25% while other carriers were in BK.






Thats correct, the 3% increase would be part of the total, and as I pointed out to Jim Ream we would still be at the bottom once we factored in Holidays, Vacation and Sick Time.



UAL has language for something similar but in order to get ther they have to recall everyone first, thats probably why they offered $75,000 for the early out.



From what I've heard they have been insourcing because the shortage of mechanics is driving costs up for the MROS and quality issues with the work coming out of them.

The shortage is here people. just remember 1995 when we had to sit on the sidelines as the country went through one of the biggest economic expansions ever while we were tied to a 6 year 6% concessionary deal thank to Ed Koziatek. We had a ME TOO clause then as well. In 2003 we gave bigger concessions than any carrier had given in BK, 25% and we were told dont worry we will get it all back in three years with our "Early Opener". well that didnt work out too well either. Now here we are at a point where the shortage of mechanics is starting to effect the market rate and we are once again being told to accept the worst deal in the industry, the worst deal in the history of our profession because we have both a Me Too, and Early Opener and that in three years they will adjust our wages to the average of the three lowest paid carriers which will guarantee that we are still at the bottom.

Its a no brainer VOTE NO!!!

By the way I was contacted by an outfit that works MD-80s Fire Tankers on the West Coast, (Hillsboro OR) they would love to hear from AA mechanics interested in working for them. Its not an Airline, its non-union. Starting wages with no experience is $17hr, with experience its whatever you can negotiate into the $30. Benefits , they pay 90% for Medical and full dental with a 401K plan.They are especially interested in avionics. For more info PM me and I'll send out the info.

Thanks for clarifying the $34.10 figure.
I can't imagine ANYONE here NOT thinking we can do better!

 

[Buster CRC]

Bob, its not talked about to much anymore everybody has been brainwashed that its just gone but how much per hour is our DBP (retirement) worth? What percentage of a cut is that.?

 

[Vortilon]

AFW is getting closed regardless, of course he is going to say vote no and he has 1995 seniority. He is probably scared that he is going to OSM or Title III. If the 3/22 deal goes down he will be lucky if he bumps to FSC.

Fact is the vote no campaign has not yielded any fruit. You continue to bash the worsening offers on the TWU yet we the members voted it down. Is it the members fault? Well apparently it's the Intl's fault for not bring an agreement back that does not pay top tier wages. But wait, the TWU did do that in July 2010 and we voted no.

Own it Ken. Show some integrity, you and the vote no coalition (Ruiz, Owens, Rojas, Schiable, Peterson, Mishak, Schalk, etc..) made a bad recommendation. No one in BK has received a pay raise. Not AMFA, not the IAM, or the IBT but the TWU has. Keep voting no though because you believe the BK process will somehow get us top tier wages because the judge will feel sorry for us. Really? Wake up Ken, regardless of whether or not we know we should get paid more, the law is not on our side. The law is written for corporations and banks, not employees.

Vote no? Sure you can do that. We all can. We also own the consequences. We can blame the system and the organization however it is the world you live in. If you know the rules don't favor you and you vote no, don't be surprised by the outcome. You can say your "fighting" and the concession stand is closed but it doesn't matter what you say, Judge Lane is going to give AA the abrogation it wants and open the door to the free for all on our jobs. But you went down fighting, oh wait, you are like Bob and like playing tough guy with other people's jobs.

Did you give the money back Ken? Show some integrity. Give the money back!

Overspeed, are you retarded or just stupid? This offer is a disgrace! All these so called enhancements are paid for by these scumbags taking away our sixth week of vacation; in addition to: taking half your pay if you happen to get sick Anybody that votes yes on this, is screwing fellow workers that are not yet ready to leave. This whole deal is engineered to screw the AMTs

 

[Mr Red]

Overspeed, are you retarded or just stupid? This offer is a disgrace! All these so called enhancements are paid for by these scumbags taking away our sixth week of vacation; in addition to: taking half your pay if you happen to get sick Anybody that votes yes on this, is screwing fellow workers that are not yet ready to leave. This whole deal is engineered to screw the AMTs

I'm leaving but I will cast one more NO VOTE !!!!

 

[Overspeed]

We flew A300 out of DFW. I did not know that

Nope. I worked on the A300B4 before I worked for AA.

You are paying attention. I like that!

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed, are you retarded or just stupid? This offer is a disgrace! All these so called enhancements are paid for by these scumbags taking away our sixth week of vacation; in addition to: taking half your pay if you happen to get sick Anybody that votes yes on this, is screwing fellow workers that are not yet ready to leave. This whole deal is engineered to screw the AMTs

Very smooth opening. You had me a retard.

The 3/22 term sheet will be so much better won't it? Vote no and find out.

 

[Overspeed]

UAL emeerged from BK in 2005 and struck a new deal in 2011, thats six years.

You are forgetting the fact that when UA went through the process the largest carrier in the country, AA, had already cut our pay by at least 25%. That meant that UAL, sitting in BK was way above what AA, the largest carrier was paying, WE ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE INDUSTRY!!!!! Even with the adjustments our compensation would be 21% below UALs. UALs pay in BK did not go 21% below ours , so its no big deal that AA isnt asking to cut the Hourly wage,the hourly wage is already below market, but make no mistake, you are getting a paycut, the increases wont even cover the Medical between increased deductibles and rates, plus the loss of the pension, the company claims thats worth 10%.

Our wages have declined by around 40% since 2003.

When we gave up more outside of BK than other gave in BK you advocated that, said it was better than BK because we saved jobs, yet we lost 5000 jobs. You also said that if we give ahead of BK that we would be better off in BK. Even the economist said thats wrong, better to go in fat than skinny. Jim Little said back then "its not a matter of if they will file but when". Well the Judge didnt care about what we gave in 2003, just like I said. Now you say that because they are not slashing the wage, just taking away our work rules, Pension, retiree medical, increasing our out of pocket medical costs, all cuts in "pay" that we are coming out of this better than UAL. You cant be that stupid, it has to be your arrogant belief that you are so much smarter than anyone else that you could talk a bull into giving milk.

Check the facts, none of our peers went into BK at the bottom of the industry, none when in or came out as bad off in real terms as we would if we accepted this ultimatum.

In Jan 2004 Wedoff granted UA's 1113e motion to immediately cut pay rates and modify specific parts of the CBA. Beginning of 2004 to the end of 2011 is eight years in real years not Owens years.

Pay cuts were 17.5% Bob not 25%. If you are going to factor in the value of all the increase in insurance premiums, reduced SK time, and other changes then do it for UA. 70% SK pay for all days, outsourcing all of airframe overhaul, eliminating retiree medical, freezing the pensions, etc... I don't remember us giving up our pension, retiree medical, and outsourcing all of airframe overhaul in 2003 Bob. Need to stop cherry picking facts to fit your perception of reality.

40%? Really? I'd like to see the breakdown on that. The rate of inflation from 2003 to 2012 is only 3.75% (CAGR) over that period.

5,000 jobs lost? This has already been answered. Prior to 2001 we had more that 800 aircraft now we have 600. The job loss is consistent with the fact that two airlines were merged, there were synergies that were gained from that, and the fleet reduction that occurred. Are you saying we should have kept the same staff on board that we had for 800 for 600 aircraft? Glad you are not running this business. We would be in CH7 not 11.

Really Bob? Better fat than skinny. I agree. The MCTs went in fat on pay and kept it. Why? Because they listened to the Int'l and voted in the July 2010 TA. You know that TA you recommended voting against passing because we were going to be "fighters!" Well now we are going in skinny and looks like we will stay skinny. Too bad you did not have this "fat/skinny" revelation back in July 2010.