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TWU and Teamsters are mirror images of each other.

Yea, Not True.

AMFA never talked about re-opening the agreement after decertifying the IAM, first its a flat out lie, second, even if it wasn't a flat out lie - WE WERE IN BANKRUPTCY- HELLO???

The "option" as you put, was never there. Again, simply CHANGING unions does not entitle the new union to a section 6 opener, that the company MUST accept. Sure you can ASK, the company can and in all likely hood would simply say NO

There is not a single case where ONE union simply replacing ONE other has FORCED a section 6 opener.

All of the ibts so called offers of proof cite groups merging/combining, something that wasn't happening at UAL and isn't happening currently at American.

You sure about this? I found a letter written recently in response to this very question. It was written by attorney Joshua McInerney who is an independent lawyer working for a firm not associated with the Teamsters. It would appear however that the firm is hired occasionally by the union, although I do not know if this letter was created under contract. My guess is it probably was. In any event, it does contradict your statements above and cites case law to back up this position. It deffinately does dispute the previous letter on this thread written by the TWU communications department.

http://www.lawyers.c...-2286877-a.html


This letter is in response to your request for our legal opinion concerning the right of a newly-certified representative under the Railway Labor Act (“RLA”) to bargain over the rates of pay, rules and working conditions of employees already covered by an existing collective bargaining agreement negotiated by their prior representative. The law on this issue is clear. A newly-certified representative can serve a Section 6 opener and the Carrier is obligated to negotiate over the terms of a new agreement. The starting point for such negotiations is the existing the rates of pay, rules and working conditions of employees established by their existing agreement. Further, a carrier may not refuse to negotiate with a newly-certified representative on the basis that the employees it represents are already covered by a collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated by a previous representative regardless of when the existing agreement becomes amendable.

The duty of a carrier to treat – i.e., to negotiate – with the certified representative of its employees over rates of pay, rules, and working conditions arises when the National Mediation Board (“NMB”) certifies a representative for its employees pursuant to Section 2, Ninth of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 152, Ninth. Section 2, Ninth provides, in relevant part, that “pon receipt of such certification the carrier shall treat with the representative so certified as the representative of the craft or class.” Id. That duty to treat with the certified representative is not nullified simply because the employees are already covered by an existing agreement that has not otherwise become amendable.

In Ass’n of Flight Attendants (AFA) v. USAir, Inc., 24 F.3d 1432 (D.C. Cir. 1995), the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit described a carrier’s duty to bargain after a change in representative. It did so in addressing AFA’s effort to apply its collective bargaining agreement with USAir to the much smaller flight attendant work group employed by Trump Shuttle and previously represented by the Transportation Workers Union (“TWU”) following USAir’s assumption of managerial control of the Shuttle. The Court of Appeals held that the status quo applicable to the Shuttle employees (i.e., their existing rates of pay, rules and working conditions) was set by their existing collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the TWU and that the status quo prevailed until modified by an agreement between AFA and the carrier. Id. at 1439-40.

The status quo is significant for two important reasons. It contains the starting point for the parties’ negotiations and the parties are forbidden from unilaterally altering the status quo except in the manner prescribed in Section 6 of the RLA. 45 U.S.C. §§ 152, Seventh; Id. at 1440. Indeed, as noted by the Court of Appeals in AFA, 24 F.3d at 1438, this has been the policy of the NMB since its inception in 1934:

When there is an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees signed by one


set of representatives and the employees choose new representatives who are certified by the Board, the Board has taken the position that a change in representation does not alter or cancel any existing agreements made in behalf of the employees by their previous representatives.

FIRST ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 23-24 (1935). Moreover, the NMB has explained that “the purpose of such policy is to emphasize a principle of the Railway Labor Act that agreements are between the employees and the carrier and that the change of an employee representative does not automatically change the contents of an agreement.” FORTY-SECOND ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 39 (1976).

But, this does not mean that the newly-certified representative is prevented form pursuing new terms of employment or that it is locked into the status quo for any prescribed period of time. AFA, 24 F.3d at 1440. As the Court of Appeals explained, a carrier “cannot refuse to bargain over new terms based on a claim that bargaining has been settled under the pre-existing contract.” Id. “Instead, we hold that a newly certified union in situation such as this one has full bargaining rights with respect to covered employees without regard to whether the employees previously have been covered by a collective bargaining agreement.” Id.; accord, Bensel v. Allied Pilots Ass’n 387 F.3d 298, 316-17 (3d Cir. 2004) (citing AFA, 24 F.3d 1432).

The decision of the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia was bolstered by its rejection of the notion that USAir or AFA were bund by the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the TWU for the flight attendants employed by the Trump Shuttle. The Court rejected that notion out of hand, reasoning, “it is also clear that neither USAir nor AFA is contractually bound by the Eastern-TWU agreement, for these parties have not assented to any of the terms of that agreement.” Id. “The application of one union’s collective bargaining agreement to another union’s members would create a situation where those members would have, in effect, two representatives. But, one could no more have two exclusive representatives than, to use the old baseball expression, ‘two men on second base.’” AFA v. United Airlines, 71 F.3d 915, 918 (D.C. Cir. 1995).

Therefore, while a successor representative inherits the contract agreed to by its predecessor as the status quo, the carrier is obliged to agree to commence negotiations over intended changes in the agreement within thirty days of receiving notice of such changes pursuant to Section 6 of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 156, even though a later amendable date appears in the existing agreement.

Very truly yours,​



Joshua D. McInerney
 
A lawyer/mechanic? You go tex. Get all that rage out on this board before you do something rash.

A Yes or No question for you Anomaly.

For sake of discussion lets say the ibt has down played their drive at AA and files for an election tomorrow. The election goes off without a hitch or protest and 90 days or so from now the teamsters are certified by the NMB as the bargaining representatives of the mechanics class & craft at American Airlines.

Inside their first month on the AA property they file for a section 6 opener to renegotiate the Mechanics agreement, American Airlines Management says..."NO"



Question: At that time, with 5+ years left in the current mechanics CBA, do you believe the ibt could FORCE(by legal means) American Airlines Management, to enter section 6 negotiations for a new mechanics agreement?
 
A Yes or No question for you Anomaly.

For sake of discussion lets say the ibt has down played their drive at AA and files for an election tomorrow. The election goes off without a hitch or protest and 90 days or so from now the teamsters are certified by the NMB as the bargaining representatives of the mechanics class & craft at American Airlines.

Inside their first month on the AA property they file for a section 6 opener to renegotiate the Mechanics agreement, American Airlines Management says..."NO"



Question: At that time, with 5+ years left in the current mechanics CBA, do you believe the ibt could FORCE(by legal means) American Airlines Management, to enter section 6 negotiations for a new mechanics agreement?

YES
 
You sure about this? I found a letter written recently in response to this very question. It was written by attorney Joshua McInerney who is an independent lawyer working for a firm not associated with the Teamsters. It would appear however that the firm is hired occasionally by the union, although I do not know if this letter was created under contract. My guess is it probably was. In any event, it does contradict your statements above and cites case law to back up this position. It deffinately does dispute the previous letter on this thread written by the TWU communications department.

http://www.lawyers.c...-2286877-a.html


Thank you for highlighting the crux of my post. The position stands as stated.

As for the Joshua McInerney piece...its the same one used at UAL in the 2007-2008 campaign, and used a year or so later at Horizon, verbatim minus a header and date change.


Joshua McInerney is, for all intents and purposes, an ibt lawyer, which I'm sure you are well aware of. Plug his name and the teamsters into your search engine of choice and you'll see just how extensive his relationship is with the ibt.

Again...

There is not a single case where ONE union simply replacing ONE other has FORCED a section 6 opener.

Joshua McInerney cites the merger of groups/airlines. NOT ONCE does he cite a case where one union simply replaced another. As was the case at UAL, and as is the case at American.

The promise of an early section six opener based on the Joshua McInerney "opinion" is a lie.
 
Thank you for highlighting the crux of my post. The position stands as stated.

As for the Joshua McInerney piece...its the same one used at UAL in the 2007-2008 campaign, and used a year or so later at Horizon, verbatim minus a header and date change.


Joshua McInerney is, for all intents and purposes, an ibt lawyer, which I'm sure you are well aware of. Plug his name and the teamsters into your search engine of choice and you'll see just how extensive his relationship is with the ibt.

Again...

There is not a single case where ONE union simply replacing ONE other has FORCED a section 6 opener.

Joshua McInerney cites the merger of groups/airlines. NOT ONCE does he cite a case where one union simply replaced another. As was the case at UAL, and as is the case at American.

The promise of an early section six opener based on the Joshua McInerney "opinion" is a lie.

I must have missed this law class in my A&P school, so in the absence of higher knowledge, I'll just have to agree to the opinions in legal matters with a lawyer rather than a mechanic. His last statement seemed to sum it up rather clearly.

Therefore, while a successor representative inherits the contract agreed to by its predecessor as the status quo, the carrier is obliged to agree to commence negotiations over intended changes in the agreement within thirty days of receiving notice of such changes pursuant to Section 6 of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 156, even though a later amendable date appears in the existing agreement

TSH, perhaps you should stick to wrenching. I hope you are good at that, because you FAIL at law.
 
You sure about this? I found a letter written recently in response to this very question. It was written by attorney Joshua McInerney who is an independent lawyer working for a firm not associated with the Teamsters. It would appear however that the firm is hired occasionally by the union, although I do not know if this letter was created under contract. My guess is it probably was. In any event, it does contradict your statements above and cites case law to back up this position. It deffinately does dispute the previous letter on this thread written by the TWU communications department.

http://www.lawyers.c...-2286877-a.html


This letter is in response to your request for our legal opinion concerning the right of a newly-certified representative under the Railway Labor Act (“RLA”) to bargain over the rates of pay, rules and working conditions of employees already covered by an existing collective bargaining agreement negotiated by their prior representative. The law on this issue is clear. A newly-certified representative can serve a Section 6 opener and the Carrier is obligated to negotiate over the terms of a new agreement. The starting point for such negotiations is the existing the rates of pay, rules and working conditions of employees established by their existing agreement. Further, a carrier may not refuse to negotiate with a newly-certified representative on the basis that the employees it represents are already covered by a collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated by a previous representative regardless of when the existing agreement becomes amendable.

The duty of a carrier to treat – i.e., to negotiate – with the certified representative of its employees over rates of pay, rules, and working conditions arises when the National Mediation Board (“NMB”) certifies a representative for its employees pursuant to Section 2, Ninth of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 152, Ninth. Section 2, Ninth provides, in relevant part, that “pon receipt of such certification the carrier shall treat with the representative so certified as the representative of the craft or class.” Id. That duty to treat with the certified representative is not nullified simply because the employees are already covered by an existing agreement that has not otherwise become amendable.

In Ass’n of Flight Attendants (AFA) v. USAir, Inc., 24 F.3d 1432 (D.C. Cir. 1995), the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit described a carrier’s duty to bargain after a change in representative. It did so in addressing AFA’s effort to apply its collective bargaining agreement with USAir to the much smaller flight attendant work group employed by Trump Shuttle and previously represented by the Transportation Workers Union (“TWU”) following USAir’s assumption of managerial control of the Shuttle. The Court of Appeals held that the status quo applicable to the Shuttle employees (i.e., their existing rates of pay, rules and working conditions) was set by their existing collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the TWU and that the status quo prevailed until modified by an agreement between AFA and the carrier. Id. at 1439-40.

The status quo is significant for two important reasons. It contains the starting point for the parties’ negotiations and the parties are forbidden from unilaterally altering the status quo except in the manner prescribed in Section 6 of the RLA. 45 U.S.C. §§ 152, Seventh; Id. at 1440. Indeed, as noted by the Court of Appeals in AFA, 24 F.3d at 1438, this has been the policy of the NMB since its inception in 1934:

When there is an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees signed by one


set of representatives and the employees choose new representatives who are certified by the Board, the Board has taken the position that a change in representation does not alter or cancel any existing agreements made in behalf of the employees by their previous representatives.

FIRST ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 23-24 (1935). Moreover, the NMB has explained that “the purpose of such policy is to emphasize a principle of the Railway Labor Act that agreements are between the employees and the carrier and that the change of an employee representative does not automatically change the contents of an agreement.” FORTY-SECOND ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 39 (1976).

But, this does not mean that the newly-certified representative is prevented form pursuing new terms of employment or that it is locked into the status quo for any prescribed period of time. AFA, 24 F.3d at 1440. As the Court of Appeals explained, a carrier “cannot refuse to bargain over new terms based on a claim that bargaining has been settled under the pre-existing contract.” Id. “Instead, we hold that a newly certified union in situation such as this one has full bargaining rights with respect to covered employees without regard to whether the employees previously have been covered by a collective bargaining agreement.” Id.; accord, Bensel v. Allied Pilots Ass’n 387 F.3d 298, 316-17 (3d Cir. 2004) (citing AFA, 24 F.3d 1432).

The decision of the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia was bolstered by its rejection of the notion that USAir or AFA were bund by the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the TWU for the flight attendants employed by the Trump Shuttle. The Court rejected that notion out of hand, reasoning, “it is also clear that neither USAir nor AFA is contractually bound by the Eastern-TWU agreement, for these parties have not assented to any of the terms of that agreement.” Id. “The application of one union’s collective bargaining agreement to another union’s members would create a situation where those members would have, in effect, two representatives. But, one could no more have two exclusive representatives than, to use the old baseball expression, ‘two men on second base.’” AFA v. United Airlines, 71 F.3d 915, 918 (D.C. Cir. 1995).

Therefore, while a successor representative inherits the contract agreed to by its predecessor as the status quo, the carrier is obliged to agree to commence negotiations over intended changes in the agreement within thirty days of receiving notice of such changes pursuant to Section 6 of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 156, even though a later amendable date appears in the existing agreement.


Very truly yours,​



Joshua D. McInerney


Thanks for the legal opinion of what happens when the NMB determines their is a single carrier resulting from a merger and a union runoff election, but most of us are well aware of this already. Your lies are not serving you well, nor is the $400 increase in dues money each year.
 
I must have missed this law class in my A&P school, so in the absence of higher knowledge, I'll just have to agree to the opinions in legal matters with a lawyer rather than a mechanic. His last statement seemed to sum it up rather clearly.

Therefore, while a successor representative inherits the contract agreed to by its predecessor as the status quo, the carrier is obliged to agree to commence negotiations over intended changes in the agreement within thirty days of receiving notice of such changes pursuant to Section 6 of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 156, even though a later amendable date appears in the existing agreement

TSH, perhaps you should stick to wrenching. I hope you are good at that, because you FAIL at law.
Where did you get your law degree?
BS University of Reamsters?
How many times do you have to get your a$$ handed in your hat for your lies and deception before you admit your wrong?
Sorry, wash-rinse-repeat the Razzle Dazzle works with some but not all.
B) xUT
 
I must have missed this law class in my A&P school, so in the absence of higher knowledge, I'll just have to agree to the opinions in legal matters with a lawyer rather than a mechanic. His last statement seemed to sum it up rather clearly.

Therefore, while a successor representative inherits the contract agreed to by its predecessor as the status quo, the carrier is obliged to agree to commence negotiations over intended changes in the agreement within thirty days of receiving notice of such changes pursuant to Section 6 of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 156, even though a later amendable date appears in the existing agreement

TSH, perhaps you should stick to wrenching. I hope you are good at that, because you FAIL at law.

Yea nevermind that this "opinion" flies in the face of the NMBs own interpretation, who last time I checked is the governing body in this matter...

“When there is an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees signed by one
set of representatives and the employees choose new representatives who are certified
by the Board, the Board has taken the position that a change in representation does not
alter or cancel any existing agreement made in behalf of the employees by their previous
representatives.” First Annual Report of the National Mediation Board (1935) pp.
23-24, cited with approval by the court in AFA v. USAir 24 F3d 1432, 143 (DC Cir.,
1994). In 1994, the AFA v. USAir court further characterized as still “well established”
the principle that “a mere change of representatives does not alter otherwise applicable
contractual agreement,” Id. And the ABA/BNA Treatise “The Railway Labor Act” (3d
edition, 2012), generally considered an authority in the field, stated, unequivocally, this
year: “If a new representative is selected to replace an incumbent, an existing collective
bargaining agreement with the carrier remains in effect in accordance with its duration
clause, and the new representative becomes responsible for administering that contract,”.
pp.13-14

Guess you FAIL at common sense.
 
TSH, perhaps you should stick to wrenching. I hope you are good at that, because you FAIL at law

Now this is one funny statement!
 
Anomaly got his law degree out of the same 6 packs of Cracker Jack that he got his A&P license out of. He must feel like a real winner with those odds! Go AMFA!
 
Has anyone called to get verification on this matter instead of arguing back and forth? If not, i will.

Good god people!! Have you not read the release from the TWU. They too, along with AMFA have admitted that the teamsters CANNOT force the company to open nego. The company has to agree to a re-opener. AMFA has also said the same thing. Call the damb NMB, they will in fact answer your question for you, and lead you to the written language to confirm it. I know all you teamster lovers want to believeit, and are afraid to get it confirmed. It's all there gentlemen, the infomation you crave is there. Like I said, you guys need to "take the time" to resurch it yourselves to get your answers. The ibt/teamsters will tell you guys anything and everything you guys want to hear to get you to sign a card for them.

Anomaly is a freakin idiot!! His yes anser to opening the contract by legal force after new union wins election is completely and uterally untrue, false, and a complete lie. I am not even an AA mech., get off your a$$es guys and look for the correct answers yourselves. If you do not you will be in the same boat as the UAL/CAL boys---wishing they never, ever voted in the teamsters. The TWU has already put out a letter rebuting the teamsters claim. If you guys still vote in teamsters you all will have to live with them, and "YOU CAN HAVE THEM!!"
 
Where did you get your law degree?
BS University of Reamsters?
How many times do you have to get your a$$ handed in your hat for your lies and deception before you admit your wrong?
Sorry, wash-rinse-repeat the Razzle Dazzle works with some but not all.
B) xUT

Always nice to hear from a wanna be. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Anomaly got his law degree out of the same 6 packs of Cracker Jack that he got his A&P license out of. He must feel like a real winner with those odds! Go AMFA!

F-you. I claimed only that I would trust a legal question to an attorney rather than a mechanic. The argument I posted was written by an experienced lawyer. You egotistical maniacs are calling me a liar because a mechanic claims to know more about the law than an attorney and opposes the opinion. amfa is full of EXACTLY these types of attorneys. They practice law from their roll away's. And you all wonder what the hell is wrong with our craft??

Hire a lawyer to help you with the language. I look this stuff up, interpret, and re-evaluate all the BS you wanna be sh*t house lawyers post. 4A, you have nothing but insults which tells me you have do not have the sense to actually find an argument of your own. Post something intelligent and original. Just once.
 
Yea nevermind that this "opinion" flies in the face of the NMBs own interpretation, who last time I checked is the governing body in this matter...



Guess you FAIL at common sense.

Oh. Because I trust in a lawyer who signs his name to a legal opinion rather than an anonymous mechanic (??) who proclaims to be a hero?

What does common sense tell you to do?
 
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