TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[MetalMover]

Come next September with the industry averaging (Yes excluding SWA) you will have both. Going to be a nice increase even before any further improvements in the joint CBA.

Hold onto your pants padner.

It is not going to be anything substantial unless UA gets a contract. And unless UA gets a contract, Delta will not give its people any more money.

 

[WeAAsles]

The MIT charts you posted are citing maintenance outsourcing and maintenance personnel equivalents. So yes Title 1 are directly related to maintenance. Should we include automotive and facilities maintenance as well?
Did you not post about maintenance OUTSOURCING to show AA outsources less than its peers?
As for the AirServ comment, just keep in mind,,,maintenance isn't the only work that can be outsourced.

I guess you haven't noticed but we have plenty of outsourcing in our group as well. At least I'd like to hope that bothers you as much as it bothers me for guys under your umbrella?

 

[WeAAsles]

In other words "no answer"
 
Thanks, thats just what I thought.

Sure. Get rid of all the competition in the airline industry and we can demand anything we want. We're not UPS, FEDEX and the USPS as much as some would like and think we should be.

 

[WeAAsles]

It is not going to be anything substantial unless UA gets a contract. And unless UA gets a contract, Delta will not give its people any more money.

How do you measure substantial? I know. Those other companies I just mentioned right. Are we going to go back on that Merry Go Round too again?

 

[MetalMover]

I guess you haven't noticed but we have plenty of outsourcing in our group as well. At least I'd like to hope that bothers you as much as it bothers me for guys under your umbrella?

I don't like ANY outsourcing.....But WHERE has current outsourcing gotten any of us? Pay cuts and concessions......Instead of the opposite. 
If you think the alliance is going to reverse the trend, you are going to be disappointed.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Here's something that I wanted to share with you guys on this thread. The data comes from MIT so I hope that holds at least a small measure of credibility for you all.

Maintenance outsourcing for 2013:
 
AA 30.3%
Delta 41.8%
United 52.1%
Southwest 59.7% (The grandaddy)

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

Here's a list of the Total In-House Maintenance Employee Equivalents

Note a special congratulations to AMFA that they went up by 277 people between 2012 and 2013. Great that they can offset that 59.7% outsourcing just a little.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/MX/Total%20In-House%20Maintenance%20Employee%20Equivalents.htm

Now here's the kicker. Non Union Delta has less members working than you guys do and also makes less per year. Southwest on the other hand yes made $107,333 last year while you made $66,334

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2013%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/MX/Average%20Annual%20Wages%20and%20Salaries%20-%20INHOUSE%20MAINTENANCE%20PERSONNEL.htm

If you guys want to negotiate with the company and tell them that you want to make Southwest wages you also would have to tell them that you are willing to give up 8,070 of your 11,143 Members. Leaving yourselves with only 2,073 members left.

Actually just kidding. According to the charts but taking into account that Southwest has never filed BK and has far less debt then AA still even after that court excursion you would have to give up at least 29.4% of your membership. Actually quite a bit more to stay competitive with the other airlines that we compete against Delta and United? What do you think? Maybe 40%?

Just curious what you guys think? Can you get 40% of your members to vote themselves out of a job to as Bob has said "Have a better job to come back to" Someday?

 
 
WeAAsles
 
Still don't get the reason that you are sooooo wrapped up in what the mechanics are wanting to do and what AMFA and SWA is Doing.  Just what are you doing to protect the status of your own class and craft. Why aren't you telling the IAM rampers about the TWU and the pension and every other thing we have discussed here on this forum in sooo many different threads?
 
You figures are off by just a little since I assume they are calculating in the Title 2 mechanics and shop people, parts washers and misc.
 
You, 700UW, NYer, hell of a line up there, seem to care more about us than most mechanics. Could it be that you are worried that if we left the TWU, AA will spin you guys off since the TWU will have even less teeth than they do now?
 
Are you so afraid that if we went AMFA that AA will not even deal with the TWU and contract all of Fleet? If Not then WHY are you and the others so ate up with what the mechanics want?
 
Don't you have enough to worry about in your own class and craft?
 
Just how many of your co-workers are now part time? The TWU shed the aircraft cleaners, gave that to Eulin. AA has given other jobs that fleet used to do to them as well. Are you so worried about the mechanics that you and these others, 700UW and NYer feel the need to google AMFA and tell us all the BAD crap you find. Because you are soooo scared the TWU which you all seem to LOVE will crap on you if we are not part of the TWU?
 
Please explain?
 
You guys call us elitist, well what should we call the group of you guys who care more about us then their own work group?
 
You guys must think we are sooo special that we need all this attention.
 
When we talk you guys can't wait to interject yourselves into what ever is going on.
 
We are LQQKING to bring the US guys with us yet you want to tell us we are wrong for wanting to build a strong union, that is just for those mechanics and others determined by the NMB to be in our class and craft. We want our choice yet you are determined to tell us that we are wrong and we don't want to do that. It's a bad choice, you need to stay with us.
 
SO explain PLEASE why you NEED US to be apart of the TWU. Don't bad mouth AMFA tell us just HOW GOOD the TWU has done for your class and craft?
 
We are telling one another what we think the TWU has done to our class and craft.
If you were a part of that then I would welcome your opinion. Since it effect you but it doesn't unless you guys actually need us to save yourselves?  Is this true?

 

[MetalMover]

How do you measure substantial? I know. Those other companies I just mentioned right. Are we going to go back on that Merry Go Round too again?

It is an AVERAGE. The contract states that the AVERAGE pay will determine what we get. Don't forget that your annual 3% increase will be included in that average. It is the average of DL, UA and US.....
Now if US is removed from the picture, that means a little more. Funny how the TWU didn't insist on including the SWA in the comparison, let alone UPS and FedEx.

 

[NYer]

Over 11 weeks and still no ruling yet.  They are taking too much time to deal with the craft and classes that to me, it looks like the alliance is going thru as they are spending so much time on catagorizing everybody from the two airlines and groups.  As we all knew this would be a mess as both sides are ran differently by the 2 different unions that are combining.  AMFA get ready, they still may very well order that an election is in fact in order for this alliance to press forward.  And I still say once the announcement is made and if the NMB blesses the alliance to go forward and orders a vote to happen, then AMFA will get ambushed with last minute cards.  The alliance unions will do their dabmnest to creat the absolute smallest window allowed to collect cards during the waiting period, which I think is 30 as a norm, just maybe, AMFA could ask for more time since they are including IAM members into the numbers (IF ruled as such).  It's gonna get interesting what really comes out of this ruling, but all of you at both airlines better pray there is a vote and this thing is not forced upon you guys.  Good luck to all involved.  Don't give up guys.  This will be the one.  Keep those cards coming in as the time is approaching to kick it in...

 
Smallest window? You start the post with 11 and counting. That's 11 weeks of card collecting. Then after the Single Carrier Status is announced there will be another 30 days. If AMFA doesn't get enough cards, it is absolutely not about time constraints.

 

[NYer]

 
And here you are yet again, trying to belittle AMFA while at the same time advocating in other posts for an alliance with a group that has done far worse.
 
I'll give you one thing, you are consistent - a hypocrite - but consistent.

 
How can giving facts about AMFA, belittling them.
 
Calling people names doesn't make the facts go away.

 

[NYer]

Then you should wish the mechanics well in our endeavors to get a new union.

 
I do. Good luck. Get those cards signed. You've been given extra time by the NMB and their pursuit of more information before they issue a Single Carrier Status ruling on the Associations' submission.
 
If the outrage is as huge as you guys say it is, getting enough cards is just a formality....Especially since it's "grass roots."

 

[NYer]

You like to remind us that AMFA is only representing 10% of what they once represented. The same goes for the IAM...

 
Sure. Everyone brings up the lost Members at the "industrial unions," therefore it must be relevant that the same could be said for AMFA. They're representing 10% of the Members they used to represent. It's just a fact.

 

[WeAAsles]

I don't like ANY outsourcing.....But WHERE has current outsourcing gotten any of us? Pay cuts and concessions......Instead of the opposite. 
If you think the alliance is going to reverse the trend, you are going to be disappointed.

No it's not exactly going to be the alliance that reverses the trend. It's going to be the fact that for the first time since deregulation that our industry looks like it's fixed. It's where it needs to be and the game of musical chairs is over. 

I know that it's hard for you to fathom since you've basically known nothing but disappointment your entire career from where you thought you should have been. Understandable since most of us weren't around before 1978. 

I've told you guys before I don't think isolating yourself into this little (heart in the right place) mom and pop union is the answer to all the issues that we've ALL gone through.

You guys need to open your eyes IMO and realize that yes, everything really has finally changed.
 

 

[NYer]

 
 
 Political correctness has never been a priority with me, so when I come accross a TWU created Troll such as yourself - I am calling you exactly what you are!  You actually do make a good antagonist to beat up on.  As you continually get your a$$ handed to you every day on this BB.
Credibility?  On this thread, you have none. 
Oh, I see your post count somehow started up again - that should help with the credibility...not

 
Name calling comes from the realization that the points made are not easily and credibly countered.
 
So let's call the "antagonist" names and hopes that he just disappears.

 

[NYer]

Who is frowning on debate? That's what we do here. But you should also respect the fact that a large number of mechanics want to rid themselves of the TWU...Are they not smart enough as well?

 
Sure, they may be smarter than any of us. The problem is that although you keep saying "large numbers of mechanics," it seems the number that want to stay away from AMFA is bigger because after 53 years....We're still TWU.

 

[WeAAsles]

It is an AVERAGE. The contract states that the AVERAGE pay will determine what we get. Don't forget that your annual 3% increase will be included in that average. It is the average of DL, UA and US.....
Now if US is removed from the picture, that means a little more. Funny how the TWU didn't insist on including the SWA in the comparison, let alone UPS and FedEx.

Why don't you include the guy who fixes the corporate jet for Warren Buffet as well? You know why the company is not including those 3 companies you mentioned. You just want to continue to ignore the answer.