TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[Bob Owens]

 
 
Sounds like she wanted to address one issue before moving on to the next.  Well, that one issue isn't exactly a slam dunk either.  This is a lot more complicated of an issue than the JCBA proponents led on.  This could drag on for months trying to sort out what happens to the non-union types vs union types. Then, the NMB has to figure out who should be on the ballot.  That is if the NMB does it properly - no union payoffs.

Or company payoffs. AA would be the biggest beneficiary of this "Association", a membership permanently structurally divided between two different unions. 

 

[OldGuy@AA]

WeAAsles also fails to take into account that even with the cuts he took his compensation remained above most of his peers in the industry, in fact from that perspective he remains pretty well situated. In BK Fleet cut heads and allowed the closing of stations to maintain compensation rather than fight.  When you are in a union there are always other options than what the company proposes despite what the likes of Little and Videtich claim. Fleet chose not to fight, so they had to choose between the options the company offered, more heads but at much reduced compensation or keep compensation at higher rates with fewer positions, fleet chose to keep compensation. The effect of BK on Fleet is probably around the same as what would have happened had they gone into a PEB prior to BK. Same for the Pilots, and the FAs and all of SWA, which is why all of the unions at SWA unfortunately have to keep kicking the can down the road for many more years. 
 
 The challenge that Fleet has faced as far as compensation is purely systemic. The whole industry has declined pretty much the same. I've said for years that Fleets decline under the present structure was inevitable and if they want to preserve the profession as one that will provide a solid living wage (which they deserve) they needed to follow the Longshoreman model.
 
When the supply of people with the available skills is high and they belong to many small unions the inevitable result will be that Unions will compete for their own survival by getting their members to give more concessions than the Unions at the competitor. This results in a race to the bottom. (In the case of Aircraft maintenance we went below non-union!!!!) Density and unity is even more critical when the supply is high.  Its undeniable that as the industry has consolidated the labor movement has not, we have the same number of Unions out there, as we did compared to when the industry had many more airlines out there, they are just smaller, and more desperate to keep members.  If three airlines control 80% of the industry then the workers in any given class should be in one union so that all three will face the same demands. The Union would see a loss at one carrier with growth at another, the people just change places (which no doubt incurs hardships on those who relocate but at least compensation remains high- I worked for five different airlines) Three unions with three carriers controlling 80% of the market is two too many and workers across the will never recover under such a structure.  Scams to divide up the membership between two Unions in one company is pretty much a worst case scenario for workers, about as bad as it could get while still paying dues. The "co-operation" between the TWU and IAM is not driven by concern for the members but rather concern for the Union hierarchy, they are treating the members as spoils to be shared rather than served.
 
The fact is under present conditions and the present structure (way too many Locals) the TWU has done a pretty good job for Fleet, although some who were in PHL, BDL and EWR may disagree. Fleets compensation when compared to the rest of the Industry is pretty good. Maintenance, line maintenance in particular is a very different story. For us the effect of a PEB may have been relaxed outsourcing, which the company got anyway, but wages, vacation, sick time, Holidays, etc would have likely been restored to industry standard. Never saw a PEB where that did not happen. Even in BK as the Pinnicle Airlines case showed the company should not have walked out of there with what they got from us. In the Pinnicle case the Judge refused to abrogate because the company was demanding below industry rates, American management openly admitted that we were below industry standard prior to going into BK. Despite these facts the team hired by the International repeatedly said it didn't matter what they were asking that we had to meet the ask or our contract would be abrogated. One lawyer, Mark Richard went even further, outright lying, claiming that when they abrogated we could not strike and we would no longer have any contractual rights, no just cause, no Union security, nothing and we could not strike, which of course wasn't true because even the Judges could not claim that status quo was in place if that was the case, and once again, as in the Pinnicle case the company did have to justify that the changes they asked for were required to reorganization. 
 
The fact is if a layoff is such a tragedy then WeAAsles is in the wrong business. We need to go back to the old way of "you will pay us or you won't have our labor". No more of this giving everything away for the false promise that they won't cut heads anyway. Better to endure a layoff and have a good job to come back to than to ruin the job and make it one where you don't care anymore. 

As usual you make good points.  What we are not hearing from the international or other groups is that they were not at the bottom like we were.  As usual this attitude is condoned and even encouraged by the TWU and they continue to disregard the damage that was done to the AMT work group.  Now they want us to forget it all and move on.  Kind of hard when all other groups are still getting the benefits you have not had for going on 12 years.  I don't guess we'll ever get an apology from the international for forcing us to take the lion's share of the concessions while having to share equally any kind of improvements.  I don't ever think the international will make this right either.  I think our only hope is to kick the TWU (and their alliance) out the door.  Why pay union dues to an organization that has no respect for us and treats us unfairly?

 

[TRAVIS]

WeAAsles also fails to take into account that even with the cuts he took his compensation remained above most of his peers in the industry, in fact from that perspective he remains pretty well situated. In BK Fleet cut heads and allowed the closing of stations to maintain compensation rather than fight.  When you are in a union there are always other options than what the company proposes despite what the likes of Little and Videtich claim. Fleet chose not to fight, so they had to choose between the options the company offered, more heads but at much reduced compensation or keep compensation at higher rates with fewer positions, fleet chose to keep compensation. The effect of BK on Fleet is probably around the same as what would have happened had they gone into a PEB prior to BK. Same for the Pilots, and the FAs and all of SWA, which is why all of the unions at SWA unfortunately have to keep kicking the can down the road for many more years. 
 
 The challenge that Fleet has faced as far as compensation is purely systemic. The whole industry has declined pretty much the same. I've said for years that Fleets decline under the present structure was inevitable and if they want to preserve the profession as one that will provide a solid living wage (which they deserve) they needed to follow the Longshoreman model.
 
When the supply of people with the available skills is high and they belong to many small unions the inevitable result will be that Unions will compete for their own survival by getting their members to give more concessions than the Unions at the competitor. This results in a race to the bottom. (In the case of Aircraft maintenance we went below non-union!!!!) Density and unity is even more critical when the supply is high.  Its undeniable that as the industry has consolidated the labor movement has not, we have the same number of Unions out there, as we did compared to when the industry had many more airlines out there, they are just smaller, and more desperate to keep members.  If three airlines control 80% of the industry then the workers in any given class should be in one union so that all three will face the same demands. The Union would see a loss at one carrier with growth at another, the people just change places (which no doubt incurs hardships on those who relocate but at least compensation remains high- I worked for five different airlines) Three unions with three carriers controlling 80% of the market is two too many and workers  will never recover under such a structure.  Scams to divide up the membership between two Unions in one company is pretty much a worst case scenario for workers, about as bad as it could get while still paying dues. The "co-operation" between the TWU and IAM is not driven by concern for the members but rather concern for the Union hierarchy, they are treating the members as spoils to be shared rather than served.
 
The fact is under present conditions and the present structure (way too many Locals) the TWU has done a pretty good job for Fleet, although some who were in PHL, BDL and EWR may disagree. Fleets compensation when compared to the rest of the Industry is pretty good. Maintenance, line maintenance in particular is a very different story. For us the effect of a PEB may have been relaxed outsourcing, which the company got anyway, but wages, vacation, sick time, Holidays, etc would have likely been restored to industry standard. Never saw a PEB where that did not happen. Even in BK as the Pinnicle Airlines case showed the company should not have walked out of there with what they got from us. In the Pinnicle case the Judge refused to abrogate because the company was demanding below industry rates, American management openly admitted that we were below industry standard prior to going into BK. Despite these facts the team hired by the International repeatedly said it didn't matter what they were asking that we had to meet the ask or our contract would be abrogated. One lawyer, Mark Richard went even further, outright lying, claiming that when they abrogated we could not strike and we would no longer have any contractual rights, no just cause, no Union security, nothing and we could not strike, which of course wasn't true because even the Judges could not claim that status quo was in place if that was the case, and once again, as in the Pinnicle case the company did have to justify that the changes they asked for were required to reorganization. 
 
The fact is if a layoff is such a tragedy then WeAAsles is in the wrong business. We need to go back to the old way of "you will pay us or you won't have our labor". No more of this giving everything away for the false promise that they won't cut heads anyway. Better to endure a layoff and have a good job to come back to than to ruin the job and make it one where you don't care anymore. 

I'll go get the mop....+1 Bob
 
keep this up and we are going to need the Hurricane 360 Spin Mop with Foot Pedal & Bucket Improved & Built To Last! LOL

 

[WeAAsles]

Hey WeAAsels, no doubt you were screwed. I believe that many M&R can pretty much come up with comparable stories, if not worse.
In the UA BK, we had folks commit suicide. Hard to beat that scenario.
At least you are honest in your sincerity that you really don't give a rats a$$ about anyone other than yourself. Thanks for your candor but that is not what Unionism is about.
"An Injury to One is an Injury to All".
You attempt to beat up your union brothers and sisters in the M&R class and craft for being elitist trying to take the crumbs from your pocket yet you have no compulsion to take crumbs from theirs.
That's all good and well but it speaks volumes as to why unionism is failing.
Thanks for admitting you are a self serving hypocrite.
At least you have that going for you.... 😛
 
B) xUT

So because I admit that in a moment of my own personal hardship that basically I wasn't thinking about everyone else I'm now painted into a picture of not caring about others and being a self serving hypocrite for life?

LMFAO. Thanks man. You knocked me off my chair with this one. Love it, really.

 

[WeAAsles]

The fact is if a layoff is such a tragedy then WeAAsles is in the wrong business. We need to go back to the old way of "you will pay us or you won't have our labor". No more of this giving everything away for the false promise that they won't cut heads anyway. Better to endure a layoff and have a good job to come back to than to ruin the job and make it one where you don't care anymore. 

Love this one. It always seems to be said by the guys who wouldn't be taking that layoff. Go poll that idea of yours to the guys at the bottom 30% and see how they feel? Take a towel though because they may be spitting in your eye?

 

[blue collar]

Love this one. It always seems to be said by the guys who wouldn't be taking that layoff. Go poll that idea of yours to the guys at the bottom 30% and see how they feel? Take a towel though because they may be spitting in your eye?

I was (and currently am) in the bottom 30% at 3 different airlines, and I comlletely feel this way. Keep the pay and benefits worth coming back to, because they'll call you back at some point. Don't water the pay/benefits/work rules down so much that people NEED the OT to survive.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I was (and currently am) in the bottom 30% at 3 different airlines, and I comlletely feel this way. Keep the pay and benefits worth coming back to, because they'll call you back at some point. Don't water the pay/benefits/work rules down so much that people NEED the OT to survive.

I absolutely felt the same way. I have been on the bubble and voted no to concessions. Concessions never pay off. All they do is move back the starting line for the next set of negotiations.

 

[Kev3188]

Don't water the pay/benefits/work rules down so much that people NEED the OT to survive.

^This^

 

[WeAAsles]

The easiest solution to the problem is GEO pay or a COLA. Sorry to those readers but a guy living on $40.00 per hour in TUL is living in a mansion while his brother in NYC is scratching to get by. People who live in low cost of living areas are selfish to the needs of others who don't, period.

And if you need OT to get by in a place like TUL on $40.00 per hour, it's you that's doing something wrong. Look in the mirror at where the problem is. 

 

[blue collar]

Geo pay isn't the simplest solution. It definitely helps, but it won't solve the problem of concessions for jobs.

 

[chellow]

The easiest solution to the problem is GEO pay or a COLA. Sorry to those readers but a guy living on $40.00 per hour in TUL is living in a mansion while his brother in NYC is scratching to get by. People who live in low cost of living areas are selfish to the needs of others who don't, period.
And if you need OT to get by in a place like TUL on $40.00 per hour, it's you that's doing something wrong. Look in the mirror at where the problem is.

No AMT at AA is making $40. Your thinking of AMFA AMT's at South West Airlines.

 

[WeAAsles]

No AMT at AA is making $40. Your thinking of AMFA AMT's at South West Airlines.

 
Sorry man. What about $35.00 with your licenses? The over $40.00 comes next year with the industry averaging. Have any of you guys done the math on those rates yet? 

 

[WeAAsles]

Geo pay isn't the simplest solution. It definitely helps, but it won't solve the problem of concessions for jobs.

What concessions are coming down the pipe? Did any of you see the increases that the APFA got? Did you listen to what Parker said during the MIA roadshow.

The money is coming. We just have to get in there and get it. But the more we dork around the longer the road to the greenbacks is going to take.

 

[blue collar]

What concessions are coming down the pipe? Did any of you see the increases that the APFA got? Did you listen to what Parker said during the MIA roadshow.

The money is coming. We just have to get in there and get it. But the more we dork around the longer the road to the greenbacks is going to take.

If you can't see all that has already been given up, you're beyond help.

 

[swamt]

 
 
Sounds like she wanted to address one issue before moving on to the next.  Well, that one issue isn't exactly a slam dunk either.  This is a lot more complicated of an issue than the JCBA proponents led on.  This could drag on for months trying to sort out what happens to the non-union types vs union types. Then, the NMB has to figure out who should be on the ballot.  That is if the NMB does it properly - no union payoffs.

I agree with you.  And I also agree with him.  It looks like this Alliance will be moving forward.  I don't see them wasting time to figure some groups out, and then not allowing this Alliance to move forward, YES it is a hit.  Hopefully, dear God I pray, that there will be an election though.  The NMB better not praise this Alliance to go thru with out any vote what-so-ever.    Hope AMFA is ready.  Also wondering who the election will be between;  TWU and IAM with the write in option and no union?  Or will it be between Alliance (TWU/IAM) no union and other where AMFA can be wrote in.  Time will tell as we enter into 11 weeks since the filing... 
 

Or company payoffs. AA would be the biggest beneficiary of this "Association", a membership permanently structurally divided between two different unions. 

100% correct sir.  It will be chaotic and mis-representation.  These guys thought they were un-informed before, and no say so in anything, just watch it get worse and worse with this new alliance.  The company and this alliance will work so hard together and who will be the fall guy?  The US side will.  There is only a handful of mechanics from US, the company will start to dwindle their side of the contract as well as benefits and cater to the larger numbered group on the AA side.  Just as you stated Bob, they will stay divided and separate for the rest of their careers.  And just think about the massive in fighting between the 2 unions when they don't agree on the same stuff, it is going to be a nightmare.  Get all the AMFA cards in you guys can, try AMFA, you will not be disappointed.  I know it's hard to make the big change, but we are very happy we did it here at SWA when we fired the teamsters, even X-Shop Stewards with the teamsters are happy after they experienced AMFA once they were in and settled down...
 

 
Sorry man. What about $35.00 with your licenses? The over $40.00 comes next year with the industry averaging. Have any of you guys done the math on those rates yet? 

40?  The new numbers to chase are well into the 50's.  UPS and Fed-ex are 53 and 52.  Forget the 40's...