Tulsa's AMT's can make things better

[DNTULSA]

4A Mechanic;
And we are living the TWU dream, so it can’t get any worse! We are already at the bottom. No where to go but up in my opinion


The only difference between us is the Company we work for in my opinion. We are all skilled tradesmen and should be treated as such, just like electricians and plumbers. We just don’t get the respect they get and that we deserve. And that is what pisses me off. We can serve prison time for a human error, but if a toilet overflows, oh well!

Well.. AMFA is for you, but let me tell you. You do know as a skilled tradesman (like the plumber/electricians?) you have a number of laws to follow (FAR's). Those direct us basically to do it the right way. For us in the airlines (121operators) that means doing it per the maint manuals. So if that Human error you’re talking about is anywhere outside of those steps in that manual. The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association is not going to be much help. Prison time it will be. Let me tell you a story. I am a member of Local 14. One nite on Grave Line Crew a member was asking questions to a fellow tech..Now this member was shocked at his fellow techs answers. So he took this to Management, now he didn't take it to his Supervisor he went straight to the line Manager told him what went on and that this man is a safety concern. Well the manager had to act so he removed the tech.. The rest is about the Grievance so I won't go into that.. But I will tell you the outcome for the tech. He still has his A&P, he is a tech helper, towing a/c and cleaning parts. At a much lower rate of pay. So you not only have the Prison thing to worry about, but if your knowledge is as good as the fellow member talking to you.

That is quite a good story....but I suspect it is either made up, or a third hand tale.

 

[amtcraig1]

Sorry this is not made up.. or a tale I hear third hand... I worked days a watched it happen..I talk to the persons every day.

 

[richardhead]

The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association is not going to be much help. Prison time it will be. Let me tell you a story. I am a member of Local 14. One nite on Grave Line Crew a member was asking questions to a fellow tech..Now this member was shocked at his fellow techs answers. So he took this to Management, now he didn't take it to his Supervisor he went straight to the line Manager told him what went on and that this man is a safety concern. Well the manager had to act so he removed the tech.. The rest is about the Grievance so I won't go into that.. But I will tell you the outcome for the tech. He still has his A&P, he is a tech helper, towing a/c and cleaning parts. At a much lower rate of pay. So you not only have the Prison thing to worry about, but if your knowledge is as good as the fellow member talking to you.

And you think the TWU is any different in this respect? With any organization it would go thru the normal grievance/arbitration routine.

The real problem with this situation lies with the clown that went straight to management, ratting the guy out, instead of going to the union about it or to his co-workers. Employees need to learn and understand that members of management are not your friends or buddies!

 

[DNTULSA]

Sorry this is not made up.. or a tale I hear third hand... I worked days a watched it happen..I talk to the persons every day.

The first thing a mechanic should do is to read the maintenace manual.

You don't repair aircraft by asking someone who is not assigned to the task how to do it. If someone is assigned to show you how to perform the maintenance, that is a different story.

This story doesn't sound right.

 

[AC Tynker]

In steps Jim Little!!!

Huh?

 

[amtcraig1]

And you think the TWU is any different in this respect? With any organization it would go thru the normal grievance/arbitration routine.

The real problem with this situation lies with the clown that went straight to management, ratting the guy out, instead of going to the union about it or to his co-workers. Employees need to learn and understand that members of management are not your friends or buddies!

If your going to become part of AMFA you had better get out of that mind set... our union leadership has very close ties with management, and work with them all the time. So some of the times are members takes a hit.
like a member that currently lost his job.

 

[DNTULSA]

And you think the TWU is any different in this respect? With any organization it would go thru the normal grievance/arbitration routine.

The real problem with this situation lies with the clown that went straight to management, ratting the guy out, instead of going to the union about it or to his co-workers. Employees need to learn and understand that members of management are not your friends or buddies!

If your going to become part of AMFA you had better get out of that mind set... our union leadership has very close ties with management, and work with them all the time. So some of the times are members takes a hit.
like a member that currently lost his job.

Ok, what airline do you work for?

Where are you based?

If you are telling the truth, it will be easy to check out.

 

[proAMT]

You attack TWU informer because he is a welder rather than a AMT? Do you attack Machinists because they are machinists rather than AMT’s? I expect better out of you Anomaly. How much is the IBT paying you to monitor this board at all hours and to attack people with opinions contrary to the IBT? Are you able to manufacture a part out of a block of steel or weld on aircraft engines? I don’t see why you feel the need to ridicule these professionals.

All insults aside you never answered my question-why are the Teamsters only concerned with organizing the M&R at AA instead of the other class and crafts? They need representation as bad or worse than the M&R and their money is as green as mine.

Yes, no union was immune in the last ten years the IAM, TWU, IBT and AMFA have all had problems as far as preventing jobs from being outsourced and maintaining benefits but IMHO AMFA has a better record. SWA and ASA lead the industry in pay and benefits (part 121 carriers). The TWU’s cowardly actions cause a ripple effect as far as driving other airlines toward forcing even more cuts from their employees as they must keep up with their competition at all costs. Because of the TWU we have been hit twice, once in our effort to “save the airline from bankruptcy” and again this year. We were given 0% credit by Judge Lane this year for voluntarily taking our cuts in benefits and pay in 2003. Also when we gave in our effort to “save the airline from bankruptcy” the TWU negotiated not one single snap-back. Today we are stuck with a $.01 and $.02 shift differentials and only 5 holidays a year-something most believed would only be temporary and now we have these wonderful benefits for at least another 6 years.
AMFA elevates the profession the TWU drags the profession down. AMFA has pride in their AMT’s and see their knowledge as a source of strength the TWU could careless about elevating the class and craft.

As I have had it explained to me AMFA envisions a system in the future in which a AMT is able to take a portion of his experience to another airline so that the experienced worker is not punished for having to move over to another carrier. With his knowledge and skill he hits the deck running. Why should he have to start over at the bottom of the pay scale? His or her seniority would not carry at all. Why are all unions that represent AMT’s not proponents of this type of action?

I started this thread because I could not stand to hear the insults hurled by fellow AMT's toward Tulsa. I voted no but there were reasons for others to vote yes especially in Tulsa. I truly believe that Tulsa mechanics can make things better for us at AA. In my opinion they can start by firing the TWU.

 

[amtcraig1]

DN Tulsa,

Ok, what airline do you work for?

Where are you based?

If you are telling the truth, it will be easy to check out.

I work for Alaska Airline, In Seattle. I am currently the day shift shop stewart.
My name is Craig Steiner. Please check it out.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

DN Tulsa,

Ok, what airline do you work for?

Where are you based?

If you are telling the truth, it will be easy to check out.

I work for Alaska Airline, In Seattle. I am currently the day shift shop stewart.
My name is Craig Steiner. Please check it out.

Thanks Craig.
Don't let anamoly see you identify yourself because that is a bad thing.

 

[AC Tynker]

Thanks Craig.
Don't let anamoly see you identify yourself because that is a bad thing.

Elizabeth,
That would be me not Anomaly. If he feels he needs to put his identity out there that is his choice, it is those of you that try to make it an issue that you can not have an opinion unless you use your name.

 

[RV4]

What is issue with "identities" on this forum?

Am I missing an important issue related to identification of others and name calling?

 

[swamt]

Anomaly, on 18 August 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:
Apparently not amfa. They have already given up, and I never claimed only the IBT can do this. The Teamsters, so far, are the only ones who have decided to take on the issue.

Until I am proven otherwise, I am going to go with the IBT attorney that a reasonable argument to challenge the NMB ruling can be successfully made. The argument looks convincing enough to me that a new representing group can make a demand on the company to force them in to section 6 negotiations based upon the fact alone that the representational body has changed. I base my opinion solely on the lack of court proceedings and the opinions of the IBT attorney (copied below).

In this, he makes some strong claims in a merger situation, but the same argument can be successful for a basic change in unions.

I'll give it a week before the amfa circus clown Seeham catches on and starts singing a different tune.

Then the new campaign will be "join amfa and open section 6."

Wanna make a wager on that?

Bob, I am not advocating that the AA mechanics should change away from the TWU. But to turn to amfa, is truly jumping in to the fire. We made that mistake once before too.



This letter is in response to your request for our legal opinion concerning the right of a newly-certified representative under the Railway Labor Act (“RLA&rdquo😉 to bargain over the rates of pay, rules and working conditions of employees already covered by an existing collective bargaining agreement negotiated by their prior representative. The law on this issue is clear. A newly-certified representative can serve a Section 6 opener and the Carrier is obligated to negotiate over the terms of a new agreement. The starting point for such negotiations is the existing the rates of pay, rules and working conditions of employees established by their existing agreement. Further, a carrier may not refuse to negotiate with a newly-certified representative on the basis that the employees it represents are already covered by a collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated by a previous representative regardless of when the existing agreement becomes amendable.

The duty of a carrier to treat – i.e., to negotiate – with the certified representative of its employees over rates of pay, rules, and working conditions arises when the National Mediation Board (“NMB&rdquo😉 certifies a representative for its employees pursuant to Section 2, Ninth of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 152, Ninth. Section 2, Ninth provides, in relevant part, that “pon receipt of such certification the carrier shall treat with the representative so certified as the representative of the craft or class.” Id. That duty to treat with the certified representative is not nullified simply because the employees are already covered by an existing agreement that has not otherwise become amendable.

In Ass’n of Flight Attendants (AFA) v. USAir, Inc., 24 F.3d 1432 (D.C. Cir. 1995), the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit described a carrier’s duty to bargain after a change in representative. It did so in addressing AFA’s effort to apply its collective bargaining agreement with USAir to the much smaller flight attendant work group employed by Trump Shuttle and previously represented by the Transportation Workers Union (“TWU&rdquo😉 following USAir’s assumption of managerial control of the Shuttle. The Court of Appeals held that the status quo applicable to the Shuttle employees (i.e., their existing rates of pay, rules and working conditions) was set by their existing collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the TWU and that the status quo prevailed until modified by an agreement between AFA and the carrier. Id. at 1439-40.

The status quo is significant for two important reasons. It contains the starting point for the parties’ negotiations and the parties are forbidden from unilaterally altering the status quo except in the manner prescribed in Section 6 of the RLA. 45 U.S.C. §§ 152, Seventh; Id. at 1440. Indeed, as noted by the Court of Appeals in AFA, 24 F.3d at 1438, this has been the policy of the NMB since its inception in 1934:

When there is an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees signed by one


set of representatives and the employees choose new representatives who are certified by the Board, the Board has taken the position that a change in representation does not alter or cancel any existing agreements made in behalf of the employees by their previous representatives.

FIRST ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 23-24 (1935). Moreover, the NMB has explained that “the purpose of such policy is to emphasize a principle of the Railway Labor Act that agreements are between the employees and the carrier and that the change of an employee representative does not automatically change the contents of an agreement.” FORTY-SECOND ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 39 (1976).

But, this does not mean that the newly-certified representative is prevented form pursuing new terms of employment or that it is locked into the status quo for any prescribed period of time. AFA, 24 F.3d at 1440. As the Court of Appeals explained, a carrier “cannot refuse to bargain over new terms based on a claim that bargaining has been settled under the pre-existing contract.” Id. “Instead, we hold that a newly certified union in situation such as this one has full bargaining rights with respect to covered employees without regard to whether the employees previously have been covered by a collective bargaining agreement.” Id.; accord, Bensel v. Allied Pilots Ass’n 387 F.3d 298, 316-17 (3d Cir. 2004) (citing AFA, 24 F.3d 1432).

The decision of the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia was bolstered by its rejection of the notion that USAir or AFA were bund by the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the TWU for the flight attendants employed by the Trump Shuttle. The Court rejected that notion out of hand, reasoning, “it is also clear that neither USAir nor AFA is contractually bound by the Eastern-TWU agreement, for these parties have not assented to any of the terms of that agreement.” Id. “The application of one union’s collective bargaining agreement to another union’s members would create a situation where those members would have, in effect, two representatives. But, one could no more have two exclusive representatives than, to use the old baseball expression, ‘two men on second base.’” AFA v. United Airlines, 71 F.3d 915, 918 (D.C. Cir. 1995).

Therefore, while a successor representative inherits the contract agreed to by its predecessor as the status quo, the carrier is obliged to agree to commence negotiations over intended changes in the agreement within thirty days of receiving notice of such changes pursuant to Section 6 of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 156, even though a later amendable date appears in the existing agreement.

Very truly yours, ​

Joshua D. McInerney

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Actually read carefully. Yes. The ibt/teamsters failed to re-open contract at UAL, as they promiced and garenteed they would if brought in at UAL. The teamsters supporters, mainly Anomaly and Rice, have now, or should I say, have been slowly and ever slightly been changing their tunes from their original positions about the re-opening of the contracts. In the beginning it was, the company "MUST" re-open. And the teamsters were promicing and garenteeing to re-open if they win the election. Now it seems they are saying, with a letter from the ibt attorney, Joshua, that they read it as they can and have enough to "challenge" the law. What law would there be to challenge if it were as they have been saying all along. So now they want to challenge the law. Occording to the teamsters and supporters there is nothing to challenge.

This part not directed to you 700UW. Read the letter carefully guys. It says "newly certified". "Newly certified" is when a union wins representation election at a "non certified" employer. When a union is voted to represent at an employer that was previously not represented, then they are "newly certified" therfore the company is forced to nego a new contract in good faith. If the union that gets voted to represent at an employer that was already represented, hence; only a change of representation, they are not forced to nego. However; Any union, after winning an election to represent, at an employer who was previously represented, again is simply a change in representation. The union could submit a sec 6 re-opener but, the company has to agree to it, other wise contract nego's will have to wait until the amendable date arrives.

Now with Anomaly's scenario. You guys vote the teamsters in, they submit for sec 6 re-opener, company declines, teamsters file suit. The one thing the teamsters are good at is wasting money (dues payers money). They will postpone, postpone, and postpone in court. They will drag this out as long as they can to keep the dues comming in. Then when they lose they will come up with all kinds of reteric excuses of why they lost.
Again guys; "Newly certified" means first time certified. Diferent union taking over from a previous union is exactly that, a change in representation not "newly certified". E-mail the NMB with your questions, be professional and to the point, they will answer your questions. Better yet have the teamster attorney's do it certified mail, where they have to answer it as this is a huge disagreement and needs clarifacation.

So funny to now see the back peddling from the teamsters attorney and supporters that now, "we believe there is enough information to challenge the law." So now they want to challenge a law that is not as they have been saying it is, which I do believe is an admittion of being wrong. How much more do you guys need??

BTW; Seeham already knows it can't be done unless both union and company agree to re-open. And yes I would be willing to wager on it. Not going to happen... Although if the teamsters really want to waste all the members dues money and fight it, go ahead, you never know they might get the "CHALLENGE TO THE LAW" reversed to their favor, which it is not currently, as they have been splewing. LOL gotta love this stuff!!

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[Anomaly]

You attack TWU informer because he is a welder rather than a AMT? Do you attack Machinists because they are machinists rather than AMT’s? I expect better out of you Anomaly. How much is the IBT paying you to monitor this board at all hours and to attack people with opinions contrary to the IBT? Are you able to manufacture a part out of a block of steel or weld on aircraft engines? I don’t see why you feel the need to ridicule these professionals.

All insults aside you never answered my question-why are the Teamsters only concerned with organizing the M&R at AA instead of the other class and crafts? They need representation as bad or worse than the M&R and their money is as green as mine.

Yes, no union was immune in the last ten years the IAM, TWU, IBT and AMFA have all had problems as far as preventing jobs from being outsourced and maintaining benefits but IMHO AMFA has a better record. SWA and ASA lead the industry in pay and benefits (part 121 carriers). The TWU’s cowardly actions cause a ripple effect as far as driving other airlines toward forcing even more cuts from their employees as they must keep up with their competition at all costs. Because of the TWU we have been hit twice, once in our effort to “save the airline from bankruptcy” and again this year. We were given 0% credit by Judge Lane this year for voluntarily taking our cuts in benefits and pay in 2003. Also when we gave in our effort to “save the airline from bankruptcy” the TWU negotiated not one single snap-back. Today we are stuck with a $.01 and $.02 shift differentials and only 5 holidays a year-something most believed would only be temporary and now we have these wonderful benefits for at least another 6 years.
AMFA elevates the profession the TWU drags the profession down. AMFA has pride in their AMT’s and see their knowledge as a source of strength the TWU could careless about elevating the class and craft.

As I have had it explained to me AMFA envisions a system in the future in which a AMT is able to take a portion of his experience to another airline so that the experienced worker is not punished for having to move over to another carrier. With his knowledge and skill he hits the deck running. Why should he have to start over at the bottom of the pay scale? His or her seniority would not carry at all. Why are all unions that represent AMT’s not proponents of this type of action?

I started this thread because I could not stand to hear the insults hurled by fellow AMT's toward Tulsa. I voted no but there were reasons for others to vote yes especially in Tulsa. I truly believe that Tulsa mechanics can make things better for us at AA. In my opinion they can start by firing the TWU.

Pro,

I tried to take this day without commenting on this board (it sucks me in), but your post deserves an answer.

I do not mean to offend you, or anyone else. My attack at TWU is NOT because he is a welder. It is a simple personal grivance between he and I. In numerous posts several months back, he attacked me for defending non A&P employees in our classification. His words were to the affect that Industrial Unions waste money and and time on employees who should not be with in the aircraft mechanic ranks. (he was insulting cleaners) He explained that amfa will represent airline mechanics ONLY.

I took offense to that, and when I learned that he was one of these very people he spoke negatively about, I have been grinding his nose in it ever since.

AMFA originally started as an A&P LINE MECHANICS union. I heard these very words from Delle the first time I met him over 25 years ago. The original goal was to organize LICENSED A&P/FCC MECHANICS ONLY.

I find it peculiar that someone in the position of TWU informer would choose to associate and support a group who initially sought to exclude him.

Beyond that, look back at some of the insults exchanged between TWU informer and I. Look back to some of the older threads. The rift between us is deep, and has become personal in my regards. I have no disparate feelings towards what he does as a craft, or none towards others who have anything to do with the M&R class, licensed or NOT. I defend all members in the mechanic and related craft completely and I always have.

The informer, on the other hand, shows his character in his posts. I have zero respect for him, and my comments towards him are towards HIM ALONE.

Again, I mean no disrespect towards any other party associated with him.

 

[Anomaly]

All insults aside you never answered my question-why are the Teamsters only concerned with organizing the M&R at AA instead of the other class and crafts? They need representation as bad or worse than the M&R and their money is as green as mine.

I did answer your question. Shortly after you asked it. Look back at post 117 on page 12
Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:58 PM