Trivial Question
- Thread starter Hopeful
- Start date
Nightwatch
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- Jun 8, 2004
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Been speaking with Stewart way to much.
Hopeful said:
Hopeful,
In all respect to your post, it may be a "trivial question", but is in no way a trivial topic. I take very seriously the union that represents me. I understand your comment about wanting change. But the concern I have is what we (union members in general) are changing to. Are we changing from a union who wants to preserve jobs and benefits to a union who has already lost more jobs than I care to discuss and has the highest outsourcing in the industry? I am all for members having a voice and opinion. You will NEVER make everyone happy!!! I am completely satisfied with our current representation.......you are not. You and the other amfa supporters seem to take this "fight" personally. I (and the other TWU supporters) are merely standing up and fighting for for the union we want just as you are fighting for amfa. Do we not have the right to defend ourselves?? Amfa, the union that wants to represent us at AA, I feel, holds the "BURDEN OF PROOF". They need to prove to me that they are the union to change to. THEY HAVE FAILED TO DO THAT. All I ever hear is that we can remove Delle. You preach that amfa "protects the profession"...........HOW?????? You can cry and complain about the TWU all you want but it doesn't make amfa any better.
I guess I didn't do a very good job at answering your questions. Just giving opinions I guess. But my opinion is very common among many others. Amfa has done NOTHING to prove that they are the union to "change" to. You were right in saying that change is in part due to dissatisfaction, but I believe that through this aftermath of 9-11 the TWU will emerge an even better union. But just remember............the union is only as good as its members.
On a personal note......
I find it very hard to keep coming to this board. The negativitiy is enough to make me vomit! I will say that I have had my share of it, but the personal attacks and drudging up of past regressions and attacking those who have no idea they are being attacked.......I want no more part of. I am working and fighting for the lives of my union brothers and sisters and for myself and my family. If I fight amfa in the midst of it all then so be it. I don't need all the rhetoric and crap that goes along with the clashing of "philosophies". Just the facts ma'am! I will check in from time to time. Good luck to those who remain!!!! /I]
Man of the People
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- Jul 14, 2004
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First off, everyone needs to wipe the man juice from their eyeballs and realize this industry is dead. Secondly, the amts are not the bargaining chip of the twu. It is the rampers. YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! Marketing runs the show. The ramp falls under marketing. The ramp generates revenue for the company. Aircraft maintenance has always been viewed as a cost factor, not a revenue generator. Yes, this whole thing is about union dues. The TWU is once again generating fear to scare the members to vote their way. The sad thing is that it doesn't take much to scare the majority of us. This industry is no longer lucrative. Be prepared to lose more money over the years if you decide to stay within the company. The only people that have the clout in this industry are the pilots and flight attendants. Everyone else is just too wimpy to take a stand.
Actually, except for the pilots and F/As no one single group can legally shut down the company's revenue flow iinstantly.Man of the People said:
Maintenance does not have to be accomplished by mechs with a license, it does not have to be accomplished by mechs who are employed by the company, all you need is a licensed A&P to sign the log books. Rampers can be replaced fairly easely also, at worst paxs can restrict themselves to mostly carryons, relieving the burden on ramp.
Only the F/As are required to be fully qualified, and with the pilots the learning/training curve is at least 1-2 years.
So ground is not realy negotiating from a position of strength, unless backed by the fligh crews, not too likely, and certainly not backed by Washington at this time.
Decision 2004
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j7915 said:
I wonder then why AA filed a lawsuit against the TWU and Local 562 over an alledged illegal job action?
The flight crew was not involved.
I believe AA even placed a revenue loss figure on the alledged action.
Nightwatch said:Honest answer....I see amfa as a company tool to outsource. I see amfa as a wannabe stand alone union, UNTIL they deem themselves accepted by all, then begging to affiliate.
See amfa as mistruths...not so much as I do see them as tearing down other unions to sell their bag of trix during times of regression in our industry. You hit the nail on the head..."have you ever stopped to consider that their respective incumbent unions were ousted because of dissatisfaction, plain and simple?"...I whole-heartedly agree...and it is just that dissatisfaction that the TWU is attempting to rectify through the survey.
Also...If the TWU, as well as the IAM, were so adept at representing their members, AMFA would not exist!...you said it, not me. It is not on the accomplishments of amfa that it exists, that's a for sure statement...
You see Hopeful..we're not that different after all.
[post="172270"][/post]
So if we are dissatisfied with Little, Yingst and Gless we can remove them through the survey? The survey didnt ask the right questions.
If being "union" is supposed to provide us power then explain how the power of unions helped airline workers since Sept 11.
Instead of standing united each union was taken down one at a time because they were more afraid that if they did not capitulate that other unions would grow at their expense. The unions in place, the IAM, TWU and IBT have not changed with the times, notably deregulation.
Following deregulation the unions should have gotten together and merged all the ATDs into one union and implemented industry seniority that was transferrable. Then the companies could do as they pleased, loosemoney and liquidate, sell, buy, merge all with minimal disruption to the workers.
But their own greed made the unions compete to give carriers the competative edge at the expense of the members. They did not compete for members through membership choice but rather by helping companies grow through lower labor costs. It was easier to take this route because the NMB has made changing unions difficult for members. However some unions were not as "flexible" in that they would not give the company everything they wanted, as a result those unions saw declining membership while other super flexible-as if it didnt even exist unions like the TWU-flourished. The company saw a dual benifit to having the TWU, they could do as they pleased and having the TWU, an AFL-CIO affiliated organization in place thwarted the possibility of a real union coming in.
Maybe that is the TWUs plan, to undercut all the other competing unions out of the industry, so far they are doing a great job. Look around, you will find more Ex-IAM members that are now TWU members than AMFA members. The TWU has "raided" more members from the IAM than AMFA but not one of those IAM members ever voted for the TWU. AMFA on the other hand has gained all of its members through referendum votes of members. No aircraft mechanics voted for the TWU. Either the TWU was already in place or was recognized without a vote by the company.
j7915 said:
Wrong. Several years back I wrote to the FAA aboout this "only the logbook has to be signed by an A&P crap. He stated thats not the case, especially under line conditions. He said that if non-A&P were debriefing the crew on maintenance problems or changing a tire or other maintenance fuction by themselves that it would be a violation of the FARs. If you want Il'' see if I still have the letter. You have been listening to Luby's crap too long.
So, according to you we have no bargaining strength:"So ground is not realy negotiating from a position of strength". So all your talk of "United Invincible" is pure rhetoric, you obviuosly dont even believe it yourself. Even if we all stick together with the TWU we still will not be in "a position of strength", your words!
Then you claim that we need flight, but then Jim Little tells us not to support the Flight Attendants during their negotiations because its not our fight and they are not affiliated with the AFL-CIO. Didnt the AFL-CIO, thanks to the TWU also pressure Clinton to step in on our non-affiliated pilots in 1997? How come, if as you say, we need their support, the TWU has not offered support? If we need the support of these AFL-CIO paraihs then wouldnt we be more likely to get it if we were in the same boat? According to you, we need these people. So what would help us more an alliance with flight or AFL-CIO affiliation? Why?
I think I'll put this right next to your "the TWU is structured like a corporation" comment!
twuer said:
Well if all you want are the facts we can start with the graph on mechanics pay vs CPI.
You claim that you want facts and dont want personal attacks, fine. Lets go. You say that the burden of proof is on AMFA, but shouldnt the TWU face the same standard? You say we should stay. Well the facts clearly show that with the TWU we have seen a decline of nearly 40% in real compensation with the TWU, a rate that surpasses the decline in the minimum wage, the wage that even non-union workers are guaranteed. I've been with the TWU for 18 years. For 18 years they have broken promises and blamed us. They made promises to "get em next time" but failed to deliver. When the company says jump, they say how high, and thanks for the extra members.
What more proof other than twenty years of industry leading concessions do you need? You have seen how "change from within" is not a real possibility. Surely you are aware that the International owns our contract and that the International routinely appoints people who the members reject as representatives like Gless to positions within the International? Surely you realize that International reps that admit that they have no friends on the floor would be loyal to the International and not the members? Surely you are aware that the International demands that local officers are loyal to the International and not the members? Surely you are aware that the International never faces a vote from the membership, but rather a vote that is primarily cast by local officials that have according to the International sworn an oath of loyalty to the International? You are aware that the International has the means to record who voted against them but the members do not have the means to find out definitively how their own "representative" voted? Surely you are aware that the International pays its employees very well, nearly double what they could expect to make as a member, this also helps insure loyalty to the International instead of the members/ Surely you must be aware of the contempt that Internal leaders have for the members they represent? This is displayed by comments like "what a thankless job you have taken on" that they spew on local leaders.
The fact is I've posted several examples of evidence that convicts the TWU of being a self interested organization that is destroying our profession. The pattern of behavior is not confined to recent events, but rather a long twenty year pattern of behavior that is destructive to the profession of A&P mechanics. From the transfer of R&D to Fleet Service, which eliminated what would today be thousands of mechanics positions on the line to the creation of the SRP/OSM classification which resulted in the virtual elimination of thousands of A&P positions in the shops. The TWU has not only sold the profession down the river by eliminating jobs but they also lowered real compensation by over 40% at the same time. What they did was worse than a farmer selling his fields to buy seed, they gave away both the land and the seed.
You want asurances that if we go AMFA that everything will without any doubt be better, even though you dont get any such assurances that if we stay with the TWU things wont get worse. Look at the past. We have seen the TWU in action, going to AMFA may present some unknowns, but at least we have hope with AMFA. When we go AMFA we will be the biggest group. Even Tulsa is puny compared to Local 100. Instead of having someone from another industry who neither you nor your coworkers had a say in chosing you will be able to choose someone from your own industry, if you are a mechanic you will have a union that will not be willing to trade off FAR 145 for AMTRACK funding, or an increase in the NASA budget or Mass Transit Funding. You will have an organization that is structured in a way that even unions like the SEUI admit is more benificial to their members-a specialized focused union for the entire class.
A note. If as you claim, "a union is only as good as its members" then what could we possibly have to loose bu going to AMFA? Basically while there is some truth to the statement more often than not its a cop out excuse for poor leadership. The fact is that a great membership can suffer at the hands of poor leadership, the examples are endless, however I've never seen an example of great leadership that was let down by poor members.
Quotes from Bobby O.....
The fact is I've posted several examples of evidence that convicts the TWU of being a self interested organization that is destroying our profession.
Most which is merely personal opinion! But what examples have you posted of AMFA's "greatness" Bob???????? Amfa's ability to protect the profession Bob????????? It's much easier to criticize then to promote
isn't it Bobby??????
going to AMFA may present some unknowns, but at least we have hope with AMFA.
AND WHAT HOPE IS THAT BOB???????? HOPE THAT WE WON'T ALL LOSE OUR JOBS BOB??????? HOPE THAT THE COMPANIES THAT AMFA REPRESENTS WON'T GO BK BOB????????? Come on now, give us some of your Owens fluff!!!
You are full of hot air and have only this venue to be "somebody". If you were a true amfa believer then one would think that what you would post would be positives FOR AMFA, not negatives toward the TWU. But you have nothing to go on as far as AMFA is concerned do ya' Bobby????? Oh wait, you can vote out Delle. News flash for ya' Bobby.........DELLE, MCCORMICK AND HARVEY........THEY ARE NO MORE ACCOUNTABLE THEN WHAT YOU CLAIM LITLE AND HALL ARE. Your whole spin for amfa is based on hypocrisy. Always has been and always will be.
I will be the first to admit that the TWU has not always made the "best" decisions all of the time (not just including the internat'l, but the members as well....myself included) but to compare the TWU with AMFA...........no way in hell would I choose AMFA over the TWU. AMFA has done more damage to this profession in the past few years then you could ever put on the TWU and what is worse is that they continue to reak havoc and do not take responsiblity for their devastating actions!!!!
So......you go ahead and continue to bash the TWU Bob, but just remember that what you don't say about AMFA speaks even louder!!!!!
The fact is I've posted several examples of evidence that convicts the TWU of being a self interested organization that is destroying our profession.
Most which is merely personal opinion! But what examples have you posted of AMFA's "greatness" Bob???????? Amfa's ability to protect the profession Bob????????? It's much easier to criticize then to promote
isn't it Bobby??????
going to AMFA may present some unknowns, but at least we have hope with AMFA.
AND WHAT HOPE IS THAT BOB???????? HOPE THAT WE WON'T ALL LOSE OUR JOBS BOB??????? HOPE THAT THE COMPANIES THAT AMFA REPRESENTS WON'T GO BK BOB????????? Come on now, give us some of your Owens fluff!!!
You are full of hot air and have only this venue to be "somebody". If you were a true amfa believer then one would think that what you would post would be positives FOR AMFA, not negatives toward the TWU. But you have nothing to go on as far as AMFA is concerned do ya' Bobby????? Oh wait, you can vote out Delle. News flash for ya' Bobby.........DELLE, MCCORMICK AND HARVEY........THEY ARE NO MORE ACCOUNTABLE THEN WHAT YOU CLAIM LITLE AND HALL ARE. Your whole spin for amfa is based on hypocrisy. Always has been and always will be.
I will be the first to admit that the TWU has not always made the "best" decisions all of the time (not just including the internat'l, but the members as well....myself included) but to compare the TWU with AMFA...........no way in hell would I choose AMFA over the TWU. AMFA has done more damage to this profession in the past few years then you could ever put on the TWU and what is worse is that they continue to reak havoc and do not take responsiblity for their devastating actions!!!!
So......you go ahead and continue to bash the TWU Bob, but just remember that what you don't say about AMFA speaks even louder!!!!!
Hackman
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- Sep 30, 2003
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Bill said:
Billy,
Many times, too many, the AMFA advantages have been posted here. You refuse to read and understand them, which is expected buy twu company boys, we just can't reach everyone in the dense twu Tulsa fog. Billy, why do you suppose that 8 airlines are AMFA? Including one of the most successful in history! SWA airlines booted the ibt for AMFA, I would like your reasons for this. Also, be so kind as to give your thoughts (twisted as they are) on why there is no card drive for your twu company union....anywhere. Fire up the peabrain and have at it.
The twu has led the industry in concessions for 20 years, so don't blame this latest card drive for the worst concessions in history, its just the final straw that will finally oust the twu from AA M@R. We cannot afford any more worthless twu contracts, we might as well be non-union. History has shown, and you can look at the TWA's, the Eastern's, The Pan AM's, The US Air's, and so many others, that concessions don't save airlines. Concessions just buy time. Without a management change in the business plan, there is no hope. This is what US Air is finding out right now, management keeps wanting more from the workers (not themselves), it just comes time to put the airline out of its misery and move on with life.
AA and its lapdog union gutted our contract from top to bottom, which you condone as saving jobs. Its just not the case Billy, as we unfortunately may see this fall with more than likely will be more twu concessions and more twu layoffs (if the twu is still here, we still might get to vote). You act like the twu doesn't have 3000 on the street here at AA. The only recalls I have seen is for LOW PAY OSM's. Management has even tried to recall full mechanics to OSM slots for half of the wages they were making, reprehensible to say the least. Layoffs were not suppose to happen with the major concessions we took, but that was a twu lie too.
I just got to vote on all the AMFA National officers. No one ran against Delle this time, because he is doing a great job. You can talk to the man by E-mail, or when he shows in person at the many AMFA functions and meetings. Now this is such a difference with the twu's Do-little, you can no longer E-mail him, and getting him to show at a debate or the union hall (only the 514 cultists are worthy) is next to impossible. The Pilots and the Flt. Attendants have both made changes in they're officers, but we in the twu cannot. They are untouchable by a direct membership vote. MAG is a contracted advisor, who's contract can be terminated by AMFA and its members.
Your statement; "AMFA has done more damage to this profession in the past few years then you could ever put on the TWU and what is worse is that they continue to reak havoc and do not take responsiblity for their devastating actions!!!!" MORE twu LIES!!! THE MAIN REASON WHY THE twu IS BEING OUSTED!!! WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH twu LIES!!! AMFA has fought for they're membership in a PEB, and with no less than 3 Force Majuere cases. AMFA has protested Washington and the corrupt NMB. AMFA members still make top pay, and still have all they're benefits. 8 airlines have seen this, and ousted your beloved twu, the iam, and ibt for AMFA. It will continue, until the whole M@R industry is AMFA.
YOU WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT, GET WITH IT, OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY!!!! YOU CAN'T STOP US!!!!
The twu is finished representing M@R, its just that simple.........
Nightwatch
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- Jun 8, 2004
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" You can talk to the man by E-mail, or when he shows in person at the many AMFA functions and meetings"
What were dell's words to the guy in TUL?...something like..."go home and ask your local amfa board"...More TWU lies?...The TWU did not lie about the number of mechanics losing their jobs to outsourcing at NWA and UAL...Delle ran unopposed how many times for how many years? More than Castro I hear. MAG will tell him when it's time to step down, that's a fact. And you want to brag about your rights to vote for AMFA's International officers even when you are not a true AMFA member. How stupid can that be Hack? Think about it...your AMFA rep ousted by members that do not have AMFA on their property...SMART MOVE.
What were dell's words to the guy in TUL?...something like..."go home and ask your local amfa board"...More TWU lies?...The TWU did not lie about the number of mechanics losing their jobs to outsourcing at NWA and UAL...Delle ran unopposed how many times for how many years? More than Castro I hear. MAG will tell him when it's time to step down, that's a fact. And you want to brag about your rights to vote for AMFA's International officers even when you are not a true AMFA member. How stupid can that be Hack? Think about it...your AMFA rep ousted by members that do not have AMFA on their property...SMART MOVE.
Hackman
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- Sep 30, 2003
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Nighty,Nightwatch said:
What "guy in TUL"? Who? When? The ex-iam officer brian conners? Who the twu/afl-cio paid to try disrupt the meeting in September? Then he came back to the Brady and attempted to pull the same afl-cio tactic. Money talks for brian I guess. Personally, I would have allowed the fool to get burned in front of the twu believers by AMFA National. However, these events were to be an AA M@R meetings only. I would not be allowed by the twu to bring my AMFA friends from SWA or NWA to a twu meeting, no way. Hell, the Kremlin 514 won't even let twu members (officers no less) in GOOD STANDING from different stations into the hall on Pine Street!!!! So AMFA is now belittled by you for keeping an ex-iam stooge out? Surely you jest.....
Yes, the twu does lie, and continues to lie about the outsourcing at NWA and UAL, as well as the numbers of those out on the street. You and your twu cultists still....and its bordering on the insane....refuse to acknowledge that the iam started the NWA outsourcing to Sinapore with the DC-10's. You and your twu cultists still refuse to acknowledge the iam wholesaled the entire UAL membership to management as punishment because they knew that they were being removed. Why do you think main reason your twu ship is sinking? Because of the ceaseless twu LIES!!!! You might believe whatever the twu tells you, being you have only been in the twu fog a short time at AA. Please spare those of us who know better, because we have lived in the twu House of Lies and concessions for many, many, years.
I don't brag about being able to vote for AMFA officers, its the way it should be. I feel more an AMFA member than the worthless and corrupt twu has ever made me feel in all my years at AA. I am a true AMFA member because I choose to be, not because I am forced to. Delle has been challenged for office a few times in years past. I see no reason to for anyone to run against him at this time, and I guess many of the AMFA members feel the same. I'm sure at some point someone will step up, its just not the time.
Do-little will never be challenged in the twu International until the twu unelected International leaders say so. Then the membership will then never have a say in the matter. They will be appointed, and will remain for whatever time the International needs a management boot-licker.
The twu fears competition, and AMFA welcomes it. Will you ever see the difference?
Nightwatch
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Hack, you are correct. Brian Connors was who I was referring to. Yes, he was an IAM officer, does that make him less credible? Is that the reason Delle would not answer his question? He was an AMFA member wanting to speak with his AMFA President. Nice reception Delle gave him. Evidently they saw him as a threat, had they held the ability to burn him I believe they would have done so, why not. That would have proven to "spark" an AMFA drive better than not, true?
What has AMFA done, at NWA or UAL, to stop the outsourcing that began prior to AMFA being the BA? Their latest gig at UAL with that LOA was a joke, asking the membership to vote away their work.
I'll give you this much Hack...if the TWU ever asks me to vote on a LOA or contract, that allows my work to leave AA, then I sir, will be AMFA's newest organizer, well...maybe not AMFA, I may have to go shopping for a new one..HAHAHA!
What has AMFA done, at NWA or UAL, to stop the outsourcing that began prior to AMFA being the BA? Their latest gig at UAL with that LOA was a joke, asking the membership to vote away their work.
I'll give you this much Hack...if the TWU ever asks me to vote on a LOA or contract, that allows my work to leave AA, then I sir, will be AMFA's newest organizer, well...maybe not AMFA, I may have to go shopping for a new one..HAHAHA!
