odie01
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- May 11, 2010
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Bob,
How long did this presentation last and who attended? What was discussed today if the short infomercial was on Thursday?
Todays Slideshow
- Thread starter Hopeful
- Start date
How long did this presentation last and who attended? What was discussed today if the short infomercial was on Thursday?
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Who is "every carrier" on the list?... It must be a really short list.
The only carriers still around who have gone twice are US and CO, unless you're counting NW and DL's simultaneous filings as two...
The presentation and discussion was about an hour. I dont know the names of all the people from the company, there were around 12 including Ream, Burdette, Weel, Tinsman some finanace people etc. On the Union side it was Videtich, McCoy, Pike, Ruiz, Argentina, Carlisle, Hewitt and I.
Friday was setting up the next session, dates and location, we were out by noon.
TWU informer
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Did they ever discuss specifics of what they would like to outsource that would save them money compared to the competition which they claim has the advantage?
Or are they just mkaing unspecific statements and claims?
There sre some real problems within the overhaul group that no doubt outsource would be better. AA is currently dealing with a blade issue in the CFM-56 booster that is a direct result of unskilled labor performing a skilled task. I would offer more specifics but not sure about the legal problems that could arise from getting detailed. Let's just say that AA is facing 100 plus engine removals because somebody cannot measure or understand the difference between .0013 and .013 of anti-wear compound. Of course SRP/OSM's were never suppose to be doing jobs that require percision measuring devices but something went wrong somewhere. Not only engine removal but very costly scrapping of endless servicable blades for sometime now. So, whatever the claimed savings was for implementing SRP/OSM's by finance to be competitive just became quite costly.
I am just saying that given the right equation and non-political look at the facts, and exchange of outsource increases with oversight in exchange for a retirement plan and decent pay is not entirely a corporate greed business plan. In fact could be very beneficial for the financial aspect and future of our careers. Cheaper manpower isn't so cheap afterall. But I feel sure the negotiators that haven't stepped foot on the floor since being elected know these facts and possible solutions. Right?
No , no specifics, although they did claim that they feel their AO rates are high but when you look at pg 6 it contradicts that, CO, DL, and even US is higher than our current and UALs no out of pocket for medical coverage puts them at at least $1.20 ahead of us. UA also currently gets 3 more Holidays than we do, when you factor in thats double time they get more than triple we get for Holidays (we end up with 20 extra hours pay for working all the Holidays they get 64 extra hours of pay for working all the holidays), 7 more sick days, and a weeks more vacation. The only thing we have over them is the DB pension but those items add add around $2 more per hour. So when you factor it in the UAL base guys are getting at least $3/hr more leaving AA base guys dead last by a considerable margin. As far as putting a value on the pension thats not too easy, however the company said that switching from our DB to a 401k DC and match up to 5.5% was "cost Neutal, in fact it will cost more than the current plan but is expected to cost less over time". UAL has a 5% match, so our plan would caost about the same.
Thats the problem with finance guys running operations where a body really isnt just a body.
Well I never worked OH at AA, the guys we have from Tulsa are not Presidents, one is a Title 1 mechanic and the other is a Title II mechanic. I believe they both still work the floor when they arent doing union Business. Of the negotiators three are Union Presidents covered under the Baker letter , one from OH and two from the line, but we all still go to the floor, and three are guys who as far as I know still work their regular shifts when not in negotiations on UB, I know for a fact that the guy from NY does. I too am not a believer in more but cheaper heads, I told our manager in JFK that I would prefer that they not replace those who leave and let the guys who remain work the OT instead of a second job. Better to have the few proud and motivated than the many miserable.
TWU informer
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In Tulsa, once elected they ( I mean every officer elected) are on permanent UB Paid or UB Unpaid and we rarely see them in the work area again until next election cycle and time to pass out election cards and campaign material. That is the real world in Tulsa. The only time they appear in the work area, is if management is escorting a parade, then they usually are taggin along with their lips adhered by suction to the company a.s.s.
Might this account for part of the $3.1 Million in AA Paid Union Business that was in the companies Vermont Plan that you used to harp about all the time?
Sam Cirri's campaign promise was we would see every officer on the floor once a week.
Never happened.....period!
Have not seen Hewitt since election cycle.
I now see Title II Dale Lantz everyday on the floor (no longer elected), have yet to see his replacement and couldn't even tell you his name.
Might this account for part of the $3.1 Million in AA Paid Union Business that was in the companies Vermont Plan that you used to harp about all the time?
Sam Cirri's campaign promise was we would see every officer on the floor once a week.
Never happened.....period!
Have not seen Hewitt since election cycle.
I now see Title II Dale Lantz everyday on the floor (no longer elected), have yet to see his replacement and couldn't even tell you his name.
I find the compAAny's presentation somewhat contradictory of "facts" they've expressed in the past.
They say,"Outsourcing by other airlines gives them a considerable cost advantage, particularly when it comes to airframe heavy equipment checks" and "AA could save approximately $180M by matching the average outsourcing levels of our network competitors." Bob, did they present the data from AeroStrategy they based these opinions on? It was reported that during the Boeing TOPICS seminar that AA was in the middle of the pack with regard to 737 maintenance costs with one exception. We had quicker turn times than our competition. It has also been reported by AA that our MD-80 turn times were an industry standard. I have not heard how our 757 and widebody's compare. So we've gone from "the jury is still out on outsourcing competitive costs", to our competitors having a "considerable cost advantage". I say if they're not just offering lip service to gain a tactical advantage they should do whatever is necessary to save money, including outsourcing. The problem is, who's going to do it? Also, it's shameless to amortize lump sum and retro to our future hourly rate in order skew costouts.
TWU informer
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I guess I just don't get it.
AA makes serious claims that other carriers have the advantage of outsourcing more work, but give zero specifics as to what items we do in house that could be done cheaper if outsourced. Constantly braggin in the media that more in-house maintenance is being done and then claim it is a disadvantage. Well then why don't they do something about it? Mis-Manage the maintenance program, then whine that others are doing bette all the while dishing out performance based compensation. W-T-F is that? And more importantly, who's fault is that? This stalling of negotiations is costing each member that has zero control over in-house/outsource and you want me to do what? Management on the other is whining to the labor group about something they should control.
I can tell you what I want and need, I want and need a friggin labor agreement.
If you want more outsource then get specific and tell what and how much you think you need.
This BS of Power Point Presentations withot facts is nothing more than proof that the 12 or so management that were at the session have NO CLUE how to manage or run an Airline. Their idea of management is hire a consulting firm, and then whine to the union and see if the union sympathy leads to an idea on how to manage. What a joke!
Are they not whining to us asking us to give some advice for how to manage?
Then cut their friggin bonus awards, let them leave and hire someone who can lead.
Which leads right back to my first comment on this thread.
Who really gives a #### anymore, there is far more wrong with this company than our lack of a labor agreement.
The Managemtnt seems to think the Union is in control of managing the company, and the Union is complaining about bonus awards for those that think that way. Checkmate we're done.
AA makes serious claims that other carriers have the advantage of outsourcing more work, but give zero specifics as to what items we do in house that could be done cheaper if outsourced. Constantly braggin in the media that more in-house maintenance is being done and then claim it is a disadvantage. Well then why don't they do something about it? Mis-Manage the maintenance program, then whine that others are doing bette all the while dishing out performance based compensation. W-T-F is that? And more importantly, who's fault is that? This stalling of negotiations is costing each member that has zero control over in-house/outsource and you want me to do what? Management on the other is whining to the labor group about something they should control.
I can tell you what I want and need, I want and need a friggin labor agreement.
If you want more outsource then get specific and tell what and how much you think you need.
This BS of Power Point Presentations withot facts is nothing more than proof that the 12 or so management that were at the session have NO CLUE how to manage or run an Airline. Their idea of management is hire a consulting firm, and then whine to the union and see if the union sympathy leads to an idea on how to manage. What a joke!
Are they not whining to us asking us to give some advice for how to manage?
Then cut their friggin bonus awards, let them leave and hire someone who can lead.
Which leads right back to my first comment on this thread.
Who really gives a #### anymore, there is far more wrong with this company than our lack of a labor agreement.
The Managemtnt seems to think the Union is in control of managing the company, and the Union is complaining about bonus awards for those that think that way. Checkmate we're done.
chris perry
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- Sep 17, 2008
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I'm ready my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! full pay to the last day. Bk,chapter 7, no one really cares now.
Tex-Mech
Veteran
Do you honestly want to give up the right to strike and have our contract arbitrated? I can see it now with one powerpoint presentation after another saying how bad the company is hurting, and how we are the only airline that does alot of its overhaul. There is no way that an arbitrator is going to rule completely in our favor, and will careless about the concessions. Besides, you want to replace this union, but at the same time want them to arbitrate this case? I'm really confused on this strategy. :huh:
A PEB would be a different story, but we can only get that if the president stops a potential walkout. Which means that everyone must be willing to walk, which is not the case with the guys who keep buying new cars and houses.
odie01
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Give up the right to strike? What are you talking about? The twu will never strike, they are a dues collecting business, that is in bed with the company, and should have been replaced in 2001. Your true colors have come out the last few posts, and your little F'n smilely faces make me sick.
TWU informer
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Let's face another truthful fact.
We are surrounded by f'Ing Idiots and have nothing to fight with or even argue intelligently with.
Game Over you stupid and illogical emotional dipshits.
How the #### do you intent to win or even fight with dumbass on your side?
Stupid and Ignorant M"F"ers
We are surrounded by f'Ing Idiots and have nothing to fight with or even argue intelligently with.
Game Over you stupid and illogical emotional dipshits.
How the #### do you intent to win or even fight with dumbass on your side?
Stupid and Ignorant M"F"ers
While I dont favor arbitration I dont think the company's arguement that they have more mechanics on payroll would be a very compelling arguement in arbitration. What else do they have? Its a threat to us that they would cut heads but an arbitrator he may call their bluff and say, "pay them what they are asking for and send out what you can". Now what would the company do? Do you think there are vendors out there maintaining enough capacity to do all that extra work? I keep reading about how they are having trouble finding workers to do what they have. If so then why isnt AA sending them that work now instead of looking to add more head?(Which they are having a hard time doing by the way").
Our arguement is more compelling, "We sell labor, aircraft mechanics labor" and the top rate out there is $50/hr with far superior benifits as well. All we are asking for is to be put at the bottom of the list of our peers at other major carriers who like us have not had their employer seek terms under bankruptcy protection and above those who did, and some of those bankrupt competitors are currently in negotiations or have deals that become amendable with a year. Our demands would still leave AA with a labor cost advantage over UPS, FEd-Ex and WN and history has shown that any advantage that we gain over those below us evaporates as our competitors go through their next round of negotiations. For example the current UAL TA surpassed the rejected AA TA.
AA's arguement that they employ more mechanics than any other carrier carries no weight nor can the company prove that this puts them at a disadvantage, in fact their actions over the last 8 years indicates the opposite as AA has increased the amount of work they insource and has been solicting 3p work. When we are dealing with human labor volume does not compell the providors to grant a discount, even with commodities its not automatic. AA can not go to Exxon and say that they deserve a discount on fuel compared to WN, UPS and Fed Ex because they arent as profitable as those carriers or they buy more fuel than those carriers, so they have no legal mandate to demand such consideration from us.
We have no control over what the company does with their money. We dont even have the right to see what exactly they did with the extra $4.5 billion they brought in last year compared to 2003. So the companys financial position, which apparently has not impared their ability to attract Capital, purchase new equipment and accumulate a $4.5billion dollar cash hoard, really is not a factor in what the rate of our labor should be .
On top of all that AA's troubles, even their labor costs, are not because of us, all we are asking for is to be put in the same position that AA has agreed to keep nearly every other employee at AA in since the restructuring, above those that went BK but at the bottom of those that didnt, mid-point in the industry, and that is our table position. $10 (average) below UPS and $6 above twice bankrupt US.
