Third Party Monkey Business

[sentrido]

Yea, when they say there is a "shortage of skilled technicians", they mean a "shortage of skilled technicians willing to work for $12 an hour".

 

[E-TRONS]

So, in short, you're saying that it's impossible for anyone do to thorough maintenance for a dime less than it costs for US to do it in house. Is that correct?

Heck no...anything is possible with the proper planning and a management dedicated to a Quality over Quantity operation.

The problem is there isn't a place out there like it!! Even the major airlines have adopted this "do it for less" mentality failing to research the long term results of their actions.

Colorful brochures and rigged powerpoint presentations makes one think that 3rd party MTC providers are as good as they say. But the fact remains....you get what you pay for. It might not be evident now but wait a while and watch what becomes of the safest form of travel in the world <_< .

I have resolved that my career in aviation will end this year after 20+ years when they padlock the gate at UAIR. And I will seek a change of venue for myself. I WILL NOT work for those sweatshops that helped put us all out of work. But to my disgust there will be countless "weasels" who flock to the likes of TIMCO and even MAE.....disgraceful at best :down: .

I will miss the airplanes and the people that I had the pleasure of spending half of my life with but that's about all. This once fine industry has become nothing more than a circus full of liars and deceivers, robber barrons and pirates and Vp's with degrees in INEPTITUDE, STUPIDITY and GREED.......Never heeding the input of their own employees but rather the likes of Price Waterhouse to tell them what ails them....absolutely pitiful :angry: !!

When these geniuses finally figure out the error of their ways...they too will be out of work !!!

What goes around comes around...that you can take to the bank B) .

 

[cavalier]

VERY well said E-TRONS!

I agree especially agree with the comment about our fellow co-workers going to TIMCO. I remember when Eastern was hiring scabs and I feel TIMCO is no different other than time and circumstance.


If you watched the news this evening they had tapes of the people at Enron and what they are REALLY about. I was thinking this is the same mind set we are seeing in this industry as well, screw everyone else and hooray for me.

 

[mweiss]

Heck no...anything is possible with the proper planning and a management dedicated to a Quality over Quantity operation.

Then that's all I've been saying this whole time. Outsourcing doesn't necessarily mean poor quality. It can, and thus far seems to have pretty consistently done so.

And, similarly, insourcing doesn't necessarily mean good quality. AS management put so much pressure in so many places that maintenance was falling through the cracks.

That's all I've been trying to say. Nothing more, nothing less.

But to my disgust there will be countless "weasels" who flock to the likes of TIMCO and even MAE.....disgraceful at best :down: .

Do you mean those people are bad mechanics? Or that they won't do as good a job due to the corporate pressures? Just looking for some elaboration here.

This once fine industry has become nothing more than a circus full of liars and deceivers, robber barrons and pirates and Vp's with degrees in INEPTITUDE, STUPIDITY and GREED.......Never heeding the input of their own employees but rather the likes of Price Waterhouse to tell them what ails them....absolutely pitiful :angry: !!

I understand your anger. And you're correct as far as much of the industry is concerned. But don't you think it's fair to say that WN isn't being run by robber barons, pirates, or VPs with degrees in ineptitude, stupidity, and greed?

 

[insp89]

Round and Round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows...We can sit here and debate the virtues of inhouse maint. vs. outsourcing all day long...But it all boils down to how we got here.. Both the company and the IAM signed a contract [after 2 votes] that did NOT include outsourcing heavy maint. On more than one occasion, Company spokesman Chris Chiames stated that the company had no intention on outsourcing H/M..There is not a nice way of putting this, The company flat-out LIED. Thru their legal maneuvering, they were able to find a couple of judges that didn't do their jobs. [One of these judges made the statement that she didn't want to be the reason that Usairways went under]. Her job was not to make [assumptions] on what would happen if she ruled a certain way, Her job was to rule on the merits of the case before her ONLY.. So here we are, in arbitration, Which is nothing more than a fancy name for compromise.. Bottom line is A&P mechanics have learned that they cannot trust anything this company says.. Looks to me that everything hinges on the outcome of this arbitration case.. Who knows , maybe Mr. Block has some integrity. Time will Tell.

 

[local 12 proud]

Heck no...anything is possible with the proper planning and a management dedicated to a Quality over Quantity operation.

The problem is there isn't a place out there like it!! Even the major airlines have adopted this "do it for less" mentality failing to research the long term results of their actions.

Colorful brochures and rigged powerpoint presentations makes one think that 3rd party MTC providers are as good as they say. But the fact remains....you get what you pay for. It might not be evident now but wait a while and watch what becomes of the safest form of travel in the world <_< .

I have resolved that my career in aviation will end this year after 20+ years when they padlock the gate at UAIR. And I will seek a change of venue for myself. I WILL NOT work for those sweatshops that helped put us all out of work. But to my disgust there will be countless "weasels" who flock to the likes of TIMCO and even MAE.....disgraceful at best :down: .

I will miss the airplanes and the people that I had the pleasure of spending half of my life with but that's about all. This once fine industry has become nothing more than a circus full of liars and deceivers, robber barrons and pirates and Vp's with degrees in INEPTITUDE, STUPIDITY and GREED.......Never heeding the input of their own employees but rather the likes of Price Waterhouse to tell them what ails them....absolutely pitiful :angry: !!

When these geniuses finally figure out the error of their ways...they too will be out of work !!!

What goes around comes around...that you can take to the bank B) .

E-TRONS i to have 20+ years in this industry as an A&P and ive seen alot in that short time. started out fresh from TAT for a third party chop shop and was shocked beyond description at what was overlooked/ignored all in the name of "SCHEDULE" i was young and wet behind the ears, yet i felt this is not right. so i bailed as soon as a major hired me. people like a certain poster who likes to come on here and claim third party is just as good as inhouse have never worked that side of maitenance. i remember one aircraft in particular was in for a heavy "D" check and was being returned to service within a few days and my crew chief said "REMEBER THAT TAIL NUMBER, DO NOT LET YOUR FAMILY FLY ON THAT BIRD". ive learned alot since then, i will not overlook anything, i will not pencil whip anything, and i damn sure will never work third party again. when my number is up at the majors i will never wrench another airplane and you can rest assured i will never fly a third party maintained a/c. :angry:

 

[repeet]

TDR1502C
Posted: Jun 2 2004, 01:02 AM

...when the airline herd gets the idea that inhouse is now a better idea and whips out the nifty charts and graphs to back up their new position.

This is so painfully, obviously true. Too bad that as Corporate America goes thundering about the countryside in search of fashion, that it's the craftsman that gets trampled.

insp89
Posted on Jun 3 2004, 07:54 AM

Both the company and the IAM signed a contract [after 2 votes] that did NOT include outsourcing heavy maint. On more than one occasion, Company spokesman Chris Chiames stated that the company had no intention on outsourcing H/M..There is not a nice way of putting this, The company flat-out LIED.

No two ways about it, the company flat-out LIED.

The problem is that as the corporate hurd goes thundering about in search of fashion, Corporate America, and Judicial America, give these "hurds" leeway. Which leaves the craftsman, once agian, trampled.

So if we construct fences to protect ourselves, then we become "obstructive" and "confining".

So fine, we're the bad guys. The fences stay up, hurd around us. And expect us to get very cross if you breach the fence.

The concession stand is CLOSED.

 

[E-TRONS]

Do you mean those people are bad mechanics? Or that they won't do as good a job due to the corporate pressures? Just looking for some elaboration here.
I understand your anger. And you're correct as far as much of the industry is concerned. But don't you think it's fair to say that WN isn't being run by robber barons, pirates, or VPs with degrees in ineptitude, stupidity, and greed?

No, they are not bad mechanics but going to work for an institution that helped put you out of work is nothing more than PROSTITUTION !!! Not to mention the adverse effect these vendors have had on the aircraft mechanic profession. And If that is what they are content with then so be it. Count me out :angry: !!

As an aircraft technician with heavy avionics and electrical experience I do deserve a decent wage. Why? How about: For training (2yrs) and earning my A&P certificate?? Another year for earning my FCC Gen License?? How about the LIABILITY that follows my signature in the logbook or any paperwork...for the LIFE of the aircraft?? For my 20+ years of aviation experience in all aspects of aircraft maintenance?? How about facing PRISON and REVOCATION of my certifications if I err and a crash occurs...or worse...cause the loss of life??? That is a mechanic's reality.

None of these reasons seem to matter to airline execs particularly the bean counters. How many years have we put up with unreasonable time frames to accomplish a myriad of labor intensive tasks??? A time frame based on when MARKETING says they need the airplane back???? Is that not bass-akward to say the least??? But that's how it works and the mechanics always take the hit for trying to uphold their federally mandated obligations as certificated technicians...by performing safe and quality work. You see? It was never designed to succeed at UAIR <_< .

So once this is over I say to HELL with the entire industry. It does not deserve to exist under the maligned philosophy where money decides everything. My line in the sand is drawn.

For once stop comparing WN to UAIR.....There is not a SHRED of commonality whatsoever between the two executive cultures!!! They have ALWAYS had good management.....UAIR on the other hand NEVER did nor does :down: !!

 

[mweiss]

As an aircraft technician with heavy avionics and electrical experience I do deserve a decent wage. Why? How about: For training (2yrs) and earning my A&P certificate?? Another year for earning my FCC Gen License?? How about the LIABILITY that follows my signature in the logbook or any paperwork...for the LIFE of the aircraft?? For my 20+ years of aviation experience in all aspects of aircraft maintenance?? How about facing PRISON and REVOCATION of my certifications if I err and a crash occurs...or worse...cause the loss of life??? That is a mechanic's reality.

Yes, it is. That's one thing that makes it surprising to me that there's a larger supply of this labor than demand for it. But that particular trait seems to go hand in hand with the airline industry; there is something incredibly compelling about working in the industry to a certain group of people, such that it overwhelms the rational analysis most career fields have.

None of these reasons seem to matter to airline execs particularly the bean counters.

Nor necessarily should it. Their goal is to get the maintenance done as inexpensively as possible. That's (part of) their job, just as it is (part of) your job to ensure that aircraft leave the hangar in working order.

How many years have we put up with unreasonable time frames to accomplish a myriad of labor intensive tasks??? A time frame based on when MARKETING says they need the airplane back???? Is that not bass-akward to say the least???

You bet. And that's one of the things Gordon Bethune references in From Worst to First. If you don't get the buy-in from all parties involved, you have a system that is guaranteed to break. And that problem is management's problem. That is (part of) their job to fix.

For once stop comparing WN to UAIR

I wasn't comparing the two. You made a sweeping statement about the industry, and my response was designed to elucidate the difference between how things are for you at US, and how things are different elsewhere in the industry.

 

[700UW]

Interesting press release about third party mtc

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txn/PressRel02/s...mplaint_pr.html

U.S. Department of Justice
United States Attorney
Northern District of Texas
1100 Commerce St., 3rd Fl.
Dallas, Texas 75242-1699
Telephone (214) 659-8600
Fax (214) 767-0978

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DALLAS, TEXAS
CONTACT: 214/659-8707 JULY 1, 2002

CRIMINAL CHARGES FILED AGAINST AVIATION MECHANICS

United States Attorney Jane J. Boyle announced that criminal charges were filed this morning against 14 of the 28 individuals detained last Friday by a multi-agency task force. All 28 individuals were employed at Spirit Aviation at Meacham Field in Fort Worth, Texas.

Single count felony complaints were filed this morning charging each of the below-listed 14 individuals with making a false statement on an employment eligibility verification form (INS Form I-9) presented to their employer, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1546. Each charge alleges that the individual made a false statement on this form claiming to be either a lawful permanent resident alien or to be a citizen or national of the United States. Should these individuals be convicted of the single felony count alleged in the complaints, each would face a maximum punishment of ten (10) years imprisonment and a $250,000 fine.

BANABAN, Rosauro, age 44, a Philippine Citizen
BENDOVAL, Herman, age 49, a Philippine Citizen
CARLOS, Roberto, age 42, a Philippine Citizen
CHANG, Marco Antonio, age 40, a Peruvian Citizen
CONDOR, Luis, age 33, a Peruvian Citizen
GOMEZ-Sanchez, Gaston, age 40, a Mexican Citizen
GUEMO, Remigio, age 49, a Philippine Citizen
LEY-Casanova, David, age 38, a Mexican Citizen
MAGLALANG, Jose, age 42, a Philippine Citizen
PICARDAL, Solemno, age 49, a Philippine Citizen
RABUTASO, Oscar, age 51, a Philippine Citizen
SANTARINA, George, age 38, a Philippine Citizen
SIL-Acosta, Jose, age 39, a Mexican Citizen
TOLENTINO, Eliseo Cruz, age 46, a Philippine Citizen

The complaints also allege that the criminal conduct was uncovered following an inspection of INS records as well as employee records of both Spirit Aviation at Meacham Field and Sharp Aviation, 718 B South Church Street, Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Most of the individuals charged were Sharp Aviation contract employees who worked at Spirit Aviation in Fort Worth. In February 2002, INS records and Spirit Aviation employee records were reviewed to confirm that a total of 31 Spirit Aviation employees initially lawfully entered the United States as non-immigrants with visitor visas. However, further investigation revealed that these same individuals are not currently in possession of the INS documents needed to authorize employment at Spirit Aviation or anywhere else in the United States. Thirty of these Spirit Aviation employees are considered deportable by INS as overstays with unauthorized employment. Of the fourteen persons charged today, the complaints allege that nine held passports from the Philippines, three held passports from Mexico, and two held passports from Peru.

The persons detained last Friday morning were employed at Spirit Aviation as aircraft mechanics. All individuals were administratively detained by the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service. An initial appearance was held this afternoon before United States Magistrate Judge Charles Bleil in Fort Worth, and detention hearings have been set for Friday, July 5 in United States District Court in Dallas before the Honorable United States Magistrate Judge Jeff Kaplan.

Spirit Aviation has been fully cooperative with law enforcement officials from the onset of the investigation. This case resulted from the joint investigative efforts of the United States Border Patrol - Laredo Sector, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and the North Texas Joint Terrorism Task Force. Assistant United States Attorney David Jarvis is the prosecuting attorney.

 

[pitguy]

Great post 700UW.

 

[AP Tech]

Just maybe they should do a check on Mobile Aerospace and see what they find there? Verious curious to see where the 1000+ so called "other" personnel are from......Maybe that is why they are so competetive on their costs?

 

[local 12 proud]

AP TECH let the illegal aliens do the work for cheap wages and let the suck butt superviser's sign it off, people want a cheap seat and they shall get it! sooner or later it will bite them, maybe when airplanes become yard darts price will become a back seat to safety!

 

[mweiss]

Just so we're all crystal clear on the point, could one of you explain why the fact that these are Filipinos illegally in the US means that they do shoddy work on aircraft?

 

[AP Tech]

The statement was not made that they do shoddy maintenance on the aircraft, I believe the charges go to show the way corners are being cut by the maintenance facilities. If they lied about their residence what is to say they actually hold the required licenses? It is up to their employer to do the background checks and it is obvious they did not.....