The twu just spit in your face!

[AMFAinMIAMI]

700UW

Lets recap so that I understand as well as YOU.

Your NOT part of the mechanics class and craft (but under the same CBA)

Your NOT an AA employee

Your NOT a mechanic aircraft/facilities/automotive

You don't have an A&P lic.

Your NOT a TWU member

You did make copies and take papers to the printer

You did negotiate for the flight attendants and stores

You did not get or take any extra Money from the IAM

You held the position of IAM communicator

You called overtime

You got a few classes from the IAM

You realize the IAM is NOT the TWU

You are still and will always just be a stock clerk

You failed to learn that bringing up the families of a very tragic aviation event
has NO place here


So to sum this all up with just one more line.

DUH, I understand, and The TWU JUST SPIT IN YOUR FACE

just so we are back on the thread

 

[700UW]

You seriously have comprehension problems.

I am seriously done with you, cause you are clueless and are beyond educating.

You are wrong on every account.

And one's classification has nothing to do with their education, their knowledge and skill level.

No wonder why you are in such bad state at AA, its because people like you have no idea and no clue of whats going on and cant be educated.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

How are they riding our coat tails when they dont vote on our contracts? I would have much rather had the Stores guy from Tulsa sit in our contract than either of the 'mechanics" from Tulsa that sat there. The fact is the decline of our profession is the fault of our fellow mechanics who opted to concede rather than fight, who opted to accept much less than industry standard time and time again. Our Brothers and Sisters in other departments have done a much better job keeping up with their peers in the industry, we havent, if anything mechanics at other carriers should scold us for dragging the industry down let alone riding on their coat tails. We are the ones that wrote "coat tailing" into our contract. We have a contract that says that after three more years of massive concessions across the agreement that our wage will be adjusted to not Industry Average but the middle between other carriers that lowered their wages through BK. So between a Union and a Non-Union because thats all thats left. The Mid Term wage adjustment does nothing for the Vacation, Holidays, sick time, IOD time, Doubletime, Geo Pay, CS rules, Tool allowance,Shoe allowance, reimbursement for Passport fees, etc etc etc. We weakened their bargaining position then sit back and see what they can negotiate for us, we are no better, no more of an assett to labor, Unionism or our profession, than the mechanics at Delta, in fact we are worse, Delta wouldnt dare try and impose terms as bad on their guys as we allowed AA to impose on us, and they went through BK so dont blame it on that. BK or not we can always choose to fight. We dumped it all on UAL, no wonder Hoffa decided to stick it to Little, Little stuck it to him. His members expect to be brought back up to WN wages and will likely dump the IBT if they dont deliver and we just made it harder for them to do that. We agreed to remain on their coat tails for at least six more years after dragging the whole industry to new lows in 2003, and we just did it again in 2012. We hold that title, we are the ones dragging down the profession, not our brothers and sisters in other departments who have stayed pretty close to what their peers are getting. Yes we have an organization thats extremely reluctant to lead us into battle but that still does not excuse those who voted YES.

Bob

Desert Snake used the riding our coat tails line because being part of any industrial union and having any other dept share in the total money allotted to the union, effects the money we the A&P's of the industry get. NOT just in cash but in all bennies that each work group gets. Stock clerks got a bigger raise than we did correct? The ramp still get 100% sick time, still all part of the TWU.

YES there are a lot of guys in T-Town who just don't get it and maybe they never will.
But maybe some day when AA puts the screws to them, they will realize the TWU was only looking out for themselves. (aka DUES) The cost of living in T-town is a lot lower than NY and LA. That is one reason they are willing to take less so they can remain employed but the rest of the line suffers with higher taxes and cost of just living.

We need to shed the TWU and the ramp/stores from our coat tails. Become more like a trade union (example- electrician-IBEW) not having to start over and over as we are changing jobs, for what ever reason. Maybe this will bring back some pride in our class and craft give guys hope that its not always going to be like the TWU wants it.

I hope that you and the rest of the new Local 591 officers give the TWU Intl. fits until we bring a vote to AA to shed the TWU.

AMFA at AA in 2013

 

[700UW]

Looks like you have Ramp and Stock Clerk envy, seems their negotiators were better than yours, lol!

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Guess you are ignorant on what the job entails.

Your elitist attitude doesnt work here.

Go ask the families of the ValuJet crash how they feel.

You should really go educate yourself, because you make yourself look foolish.

700UW

While your gone can you get me a cup of coffee on your way back from the printers?

Maybe the Easter bunny will have a special egg for you when you get Back.

AMFA at AA in 2013​

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

700UW

While your gone can you get me a cup of coffee on your way back from the printers?

Maybe the Easter bunny will have a special egg for you when you get Back.

AMFA at AA in 2013​

And you want to be a leader of the AMFA movement at AA?

You are supposed to be a professional. That is what the AMFA is. A group who rises above the fray of the industrial goon union mentality.

I don't see eye to eye on many issues with 700UW. However, You should stop stop being so childish. Stock clerks play a vital role in airline operations. They have hazmat shipping responsibilities among the many other functions they do. If you have ever had a bad one at a station, you know how they can impact on time performance.

Making light of anyone's job is a slippery slope. You said you were EAL. You remember when the media portrayed you all for making too much money and wanting more?

The TWU may be "spitting in your face" but that does not mean you need continue that behavior.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob

Desert Snake used the riding our coat tails line because being part of any industrial union and having any other dept share in the total money allotted to the union, effects the money we the A&P's of the industry get. NOT just in cash but in all bennies that each work group gets. Stock clerks got a bigger raise than we did correct? The ramp still get 100% sick time, still all part of the TWU.

YES there are a lot of guys in T-Town who just don't get it and maybe they never will.
But maybe some day when AA puts the screws to them, they will realize the TWU was only looking out for themselves. (aka DUES) The cost of living in T-town is a lot lower than NY and LA. That is one reason they are willing to take less so they can remain employed but the rest of the line suffers with higher taxes and cost of just living.

We need to shed the TWU and the ramp/stores from our coat tails. Become more like a trade union (example- electrician-IBEW) not having to start over and over as we are changing jobs, for what ever reason. Maybe this will bring back some pride in our class and craft give guys hope that its not always going to be like the TWU wants it.

I hope that you and the rest of the new Local 591 officers give the TWU Intl. fits until we bring a vote to AA to shed the TWU.

AMFA at AA in 2013

The first flaw in your theory is that the company simply gets to "allot" whatever they feel like paying and the Unions have to decide how to get there. Why have a Union at all if the money is going to be whatever the company says it is? This mentality is the byproduct of Business Unionism and most guys really dont even realize what they are saying, and they believe it!!

I know this may seem odd to request of an AMFA supporter but I would suggest watching the Mike Quill Sen Hartley debate on Youtube. Companies have been pushing this "Theirs only so much money in the pot" BS line since the beginning of time. Unions always used to reject this BS. Hartley makes the mistake of making such a claim to which Quill responded how its funny how a few days after the strike they seem to find all the money they needed to avert the strike 'Wherer were they hiding it? " he said. More recently, a few years back the MTA claimed they had no money for raises yet right after the cobntract they "found" plenty of money that would have more than covered the raises. look at us today, we are rolling into six more years of oppressive concessions yet despite having 500 new airplanes on order with several new planes a month coming in AA is expected to post record profits. We were told that we had to meet a number, that the company determines how much we have to gove, and we just accept that!!!

Lets say we do get AMFA, if the company says we are offering you a package worth $1billion over four years should we even bother trying to sort out how we want to allott those monies or simply say "These are the rates and terms across the industry and here is what we expect".

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

And you want to be a leader of the AMFA movement at AA?

You are supposed to be a professional. That is what the AMFA is. A group who rises above the fray of the industrial goon union mentality.

I don't see eye to eye on many issues with 700UW. However, You should stop stop being so childish. Stock clerks play a vital role in airline operations. They have hazmat shipping responsibilities among the many other functions they do. If you have ever had a bad one at a station, you know how they can impact on time performance.

Making light of anyone's job is a slippery slope. You said you were EAL. You remember when the media portrayed you all for making too much money and wanting more?

The TWU may be "spitting in your face" but that does not mean you need continue that behavior.

Glen Quagmire

It's not his job it's the fact that he thinks as an IAM supporter he can spew his rhetoric about how a union should be and tell us the mechanics at AA what to do. His job has nothing to do with what we here at AA are attempting.

I don't care how much money he makes or what union he is in or supports.
We are in a battle here at AA to remove the TWU. The more crap he puts out that guys have to try and muck through clouds the issues. Teamsters/IAM alot of guys don't even follow or care any more. 26% voted in 591 election and our current contract we had many who did not vote as well. It passed by only 48 votes.

He made himself out to be this almighty IAM know it all, I never said any where that I wanted to be a leader at AMFA those positions are earned and elected.

I just want the TWU gone from AA, which will bring a class and craft union here to change to I got mine culture here to AA Hopefully.

AMFA at AA in 2013

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

The first flaw in your theory is that the company simply gets to "allot" whatever they feel like paying and the Unions have to decide how to get there. Why have a Union at all if the money is going to be whatever the company says it is? This mentality is the byproduct of Business Unionism and most guys really dont even realize what they are saying, and they believe it!!

I know this may seem odd to request of an AMFA supporter but I would suggest watching the Mike Quill Sen Hartley debate on Youtube. Companies have been pushing this "Theirs only so much money in the pot" BS line since the beginning of time. Unions always used to reject this BS. Hartley makes the mistake of making such a claim to which Quill responded how its funny how a few days after the strike they seem to find all the money they needed to avert the strike 'Wherer were they hiding it? " he said. More recently, a few years back the MTA claimed they had no money for raises yet right after the cobntract they "found" plenty of money that would have more than covered the raises. look at us today, we are rolling into six more years of oppressive concessions yet despite having 500 new airplanes on order with several new planes a month coming in AA is expected to post record profits. We were told that we had to meet a number, that the company determines how much we have to gove, and we just accept that!!!

Lets say we do get AMFA, if the company says we are offering you a package worth $1billion over four years should we even bother trying to sort out how we want to allott those monies or simply say "These are the rates and terms across the industry and here is what we expect".

BOB

Like you I have been in the industry a long time, I know that the company is only going to a lot a certain amount of money, and the TWU has to figure out how it will be disbursed among its members. That money gets allotted by the number of members and the jobs they do. The Pilots get money because of their job, the F/A as well.
I and a lot of other just want to be separate from the ramp and stores and we will see what difference it makes to your pay check and mine.

I know deep down you wish we were separate as well but being in the position you are with the TWU you want and need to be politically correct as not to offend the members and be called an elitist your self.

I have heard that what Quill did for the members back then was a good thing but the TWU over the yrs has changed and you and I can see that they are a corrupt union just out to serve themselves. But is Don V. or Bobby G. looking out for us?

Union leaders did in the past brought the standard of union labor up. But now the unions are folding under the companies and the government laws are letting it happen. You have spent many yrs in this industry, with all of that are you going to leave it far better off than the guys of the past? Don't you want to pave the way for the mechanics of the future to get the money and all they deserve or is the bar set by AA and the TWU what you want to leave as your LEGACY?

AMFA at AA in 2013

 

[swamt]

For information to all that read this.

700uw is a stock clerk by trade he also supports the IAM. He also believes he should have a say what happens here at AA. He is not even an AA employee. Never was...

Just like here at AA store is some what attached to M&R by that he thinks that they are part of our class and craft as well. Even though he has been shown the NMB ruling as to who is in our class and craft.

Stores will not have a say when a vote comes to AA, to rid us of the TWU and it will not have a vote after we switch either or merge with USAir. Aircraft/Facilities/Automotive Mechanics will vote NOT STORES>>> No matter how many times he has been told he just does not get it.

700uw will also say that he sat in on negotiations with the IAM while he was working, but he never was part of the IAM international. Just like our officers here at AA don't sit in either they sit in an adjoining room then get fed info from Intl. Get divided into groups to talk about certain articles which being discussed, then give input to Intl team.

The only UNION that the average A&P can actually sit in on negotiations is AMFA. NOT the IBT/TWU/IAM

He calls us who want to be seperate elitest because if we were not attached to the Ramp and stores all the yrs we would be making more money and those work groups would be making alot less.

EVen Small groups at AA that are TWU make more money than the A&P's. But 700UW wants you to believe that small unions won't get a better deal.

AMFA AT AA IN 2013​

I have been trying to avoid an argument on this subject, but the store clerks are not a part of the mechanics and related. Don't know who is feeding 700 the info but I do know for fact they are not part of mechanic and related here or at AA. Why in the world would it be any different at another carrier (US)?? I don't think it is but I cannot garrentee it as I am not at US. He can call it what ever he wants to, but when we went on our own at SWA the exact same thing that Lineguy43 posted was happening here at SWA. Once we separated from the cleaners we were much better off--by far...

 

[swamt]

Can you not comprehend?

From 1949 till 2006 at US Stock Clerks were in the same class and craft, is that too hard to understand?

And to this day even after them getting their own certification, they are still on and part of the Mechanic and Related CBA at US.

And are you going to address why you posted lies and I explained clearly how the NC was made up and what went on?

If this is still the case as far as them being part of the CBA, that needs to change. Get rid of the store clerks from the mechs CBA.

 

[WNMECH]

I have avoided this spat also but I have a question.

If US stock clerks and mechanics are not in the same class and craft but they are on the same contract, pay rates and benefits are negotiated and voted on together on the same contract by both groups together,
Isn't this the exact definition of one unskilled group riding the coattails of another skilled licensed group?

3..2..1..
Cue 700 calling me an elitist for asking the question.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I have avoided this spat also but I have a question.

If US stock clerks and mechanics are not in the same class and craft but they are on the same contract, pay rates and benefits are negotiated and voted on together on the same contract by both groups together...

From the NMB website:

"Craft-or-class:

Under the RLA, this is a group of employees deemed by the NMB to share a community of work and interest for the purpose of negotiating as a group (collective bargaining) with management over wages, hours, benefits and working conditions. Under the RLA, craft-or-classes are carrier wide, not location based."

Note the words "carrier wide".

"Craft or Class Determinations

The NMB processes applications for investigation of a representation dispute only among an appropriate group of employees, known as a craft or class. A craft or class of a carrier's employees is a group of employees that share a community of work and interest. NMB craft or class determinations apply across a transportation system. Therefore, a craft or class generally includes all employees of the carrier, regardless of work location, who perform the job functions the NMB has determined should be grouped together. The RLA does not set particular crafts or classes, but rather recognizes craft or class distinctions as they have evolved in the air and rail industries."

http://us.practicallaw.com/2-514-2121#a468345

That is most likely due to the fact that a Stores/Stock Clerk (or any other job classification) at carrier A may not have the same duties or job description than the same employee at carrier B.

 

[WNMECH]

From the NMB website:

"Craft-or-class:

Under the RLA, this is a group of employees deemed by the NMB to share a community of work and interest for the purpose of negotiating as a group (collective bargaining) with management over wages, hours, benefits and working conditions. Under the RLA, craft-or-classes are carrier wide, not location based."

Note the words "carrier wide".

"Craft or Class Determinations

The NMB processes applications for investigation of a representation dispute only among an appropriate group of employees, known as a craft or class. A craft or class of a carrier's employees is a group of employees that share a community of work and interest. NMB craft or class determinations apply across a transportation system. Therefore, a craft or class generally includes all employees of the carrier, regardless of work location, who perform the job functions the NMB has determined should be grouped together. The RLA does not set particular crafts or classes, but rather recognizes craft or class distinctions as they have evolved in the air and rail industries."

http://us.practicallaw.com/2-514-2121#a468345

That is most likely due to the fact that a Stores/Stock Clerk (or any other job classification) at carrier A may not have the same duties or job description than the same employee at carrier B.

It has been shown that the US stock clerks were part of the same craft and class as the mechanics at one time.
Then after a merger, they were ruled to be separate from each others class and craft.

So why are they still on the same contract?
Do both groups vote together on the same contract to determine the wages and benefits of both groups?
700 has repeatedly told us that they are both on the same CBA but have been ruled a separate class and craft sometime around 2005.

If they ARE voting together on the same contract for both, isn't that coattail riding?

If they ARE NOT voting together on the same contract, how does that work?

 

[Bob Owens]

BOB

Like you I have been in the industry a long time, I know that the company is only going to a lot a certain amount of money, and the TWU has to figure out how it will be disbursed among its members. That money gets allotted by the number of members and the jobs they do. The Pilots get money because of their job, the F/A as well.
I and a lot of other just want to be separate from the ramp and stores and we will see what difference it makes to your pay check and mine.

Question, What do you gain by putting others down that have nothing to do with our fellow mechanics voting YES? I doubt when the FAs left and formed the APFA they bothered tearing down Mechanics , baggage handlers and Stock Clerks. All that does is make mechanics look bad, it makes it look like we dont have enough of an arguement to promote our profession so we attack people who earn less than we do.

Pilots get what they get because they negotiate it. Is there really any difference between what an Eagle pilot does and what a 777 pilot does? The pay is very different though, why? Because the pilots negotiate better deals. A 777 sitting on the ground eats up a lot more money than an RJ.